Elemental all-purpose thread

Tide · 2010-09-10T11:55:18.000Z

simpler question: why wouldn’t they give a full, frictionless refund?

plenty of companies (Zappos, REI, LLBean) who are esteemed for their customer service get that by doing easy refunds and returns. Wouldn’t that be easier for SD instead of trying to do some bargain and analysis with their users. Honest question.

Jab · 2010-09-10T12:09:58.000Z

So am I’m the only one left here who hasn’t gotten their LE yet? I sent an email to sales 2 days ago and haven’t received a response.

Robert_Sharp · 2010-09-10T12:11:38.000Z

Those companies you listed sell physical products that generally can’t be used before returning. Software is different. Maybe you copied it. Maybe you played it a bunch, liked it, and now are sending it back because you are done playing. A video game isn’t the same as a pair of pants. Note though that those companies you listed DO still have a limited return policy. You can’t buy something and return it after 90 days for a lot of companies. That’s a pretty standard practice. Now you could say that pre-orders should be different, but in this case the pre-order gave access to the game, which is why you were charged at the time of ordering. For most pre-orders, you are charged at shipping.

So it isn’t a good analogy (and I do believe you when you say you are just asking an honest question, so I’m not trying to be snarky with my response).

Jason_McCullough · 2010-09-10T12:16:43.000Z

Telefrog:

Which forum post is that?

This.

Matt_Perkins · 2010-09-10T12:24:04.000Z

Jason McCullough:

This.

I’ll respond with This.

Alstein · 2010-09-10T12:25:25.000Z

Mazuo:

I don’t know, seems to still be pretty strongly in the denial and anger camps from what I see. Just this morning he rather flatly stated in the Drama Cleansing thread that anyone accusing them of dishonesty are ‘vile, nasty’ people that will be turned away from the official forum.

Further on, another statement about how it wasn’t any issue of honesty but just sheer obtuseness. I guess what I’m left waiting for is some statement about how that’s going to be rectified. If your company is so dysfunctional it can’t notice what many other nonprofessionals did, what is going to be done about it? Patches are great, but how are they going to improve things without an overhaul in how they actually oversee the project? Perhaps I missed some further clarification as I’ve mainly just been refreshing this thread for others’ refund statuses.

Name one official gaming forum, or even general gaming site, where you can go and call the mods liars and troll them, and not get banned.

If I went on here, and spewed a bunch of “vile,nasty stuff” at Tom, I’d be outta here fast.

Note: they didn’t say harsh criticism, I’ve given my share over there- and they don’t seem to mind me one bit.

As for changes, it looks like given some other forum posts, they are listening to people on stuff. Also the patches so far have improved things for me a good bit on the technical end. I’m going to give Stardock a chance before bailing, they’ve earned it from me with their history.

Tide:

simpler question: why wouldn’t they give a full, frictionless refund?

plenty of companies (Zappos, REI, LLBean) who are esteemed for their customer service get that by doing easy refunds and returns. Wouldn’t that be easier for SD instead of trying to do some bargain and analysis with their users. Honest question.

I think it’s reasonable to try and fix someone’s problem first instead of giving them a refund. Sometimes support can fix severe technical issues- works about half the time I can’t run something.

I do disagree with the 75% rule, at least in the case of a game that gets bad reviews- for the sake of good business.

TheTrunkDr · 2010-09-10T12:34:50.000Z

Robert Sharp:

Those companies you listed sell physical products that generally can’t be used before returning. Software is different. Maybe you copied it. Maybe you played it a bunch, liked it, and now are sending it back because you are done playing. A video game isn’t the same as a pair of pants. Note though that those companies you listed DO still have a limited return policy. You can’t buy something and return it after 90 days for a lot of companies. That’s a pretty standard practice. Now you could say that pre-orders should be different, but in this case the pre-order gave access to the game, which is why you were charged at the time of ordering. For most pre-orders, you are charged at shipping.

So it isn’t a good analogy (and I do believe you when you say you are just asking an honest question, so I’m not trying to be snarky with my response).

It’s a fine analogy. Stardock offers a return policy, limits such as 90 days are reasonable, the game was released a couple of weeks ago. Why shouldn’t they take it back and refund the customer’s money as their policy states?

Alan_Dunkin · 2010-09-10T12:43:35.000Z

I’ve managed and moderated plenty of company forums where we were accused much worse of being liars. You draw the line appropriately then you enforce the crossing of it as much as you can.

— Alan

Telefrog · 2010-09-10T12:46:04.000Z

Jason McCullough:

This.

Oh. I thought it was something new.

Surly_Bob · 2010-09-10T12:49:11.000Z

Alstein:

Name one official gaming forum, or even general gaming site, where you can go and call the mods liars and troll them, and not get banned.

Name one other game company that references the Bill of Rights in their marketing.

Also, banning longtime customers for criticizing a game that you admit is flawed is like building a mosque near ground zero - sure, you can do that. It’s your right. Is it wise, though? If I was whatshisface, I’d rather have all of the complainers on my corporate reservation, where I can delete, edit or lock their threads, not spread out over 500 forums spreading their “vile hatred” everywhere. Plus, I could then gang up on them with all my sockpuppets and my fanboys would always have my back.

Dan_Theman · 2010-09-10T13:05:35.000Z

TheTrunkDr:

It’s a fine analogy. Stardock offers a return policy, limits such as 90 days are reasonable, the game was released a couple of weeks ago. Why shouldn’t they take it back and refund the customer’s money as their policy states?

As far as I can tell, they’re doing exactly as their policy states and sometimes more.

preorders are exempted entirely
you need to work with their tech to see if you can get it working if you want a full refund.
you need to request a return within 90 days of purchase (NOT of downloading it).

Those are all included in the policy, and the bit about preorders was also on the page when a person was going to actually preorder.

Store credit is probably being given on a case-by-case basis for those who have fallen out of the parameters. There may also be circumstances where full refunds are given that are still not technically in compliance.

So according to their policy:
[ul]
[li]If you preordered and want to return it and they’re willing to give you anything back, then that’s going above and beyond the stated policy.[/li][li]If you didn’t preorder and you don’t want to bother working with tech support, expect 75% back.[/li][li]If you didn’t preorder and you’ve worked with tech support but your issues still can’t be resolved, expect 100%.[/li][/ul]Mind you, I don’t know what any given forum member’s particulars are with their purchase and I also don’t know if they went to any lengths to resolve their issues with tech support (complaining about the game on a forum does not constitute using tech support).

Also, I’m sure there are circumstances where data entry mistakes may have been made. They’re only human.

Now, did they break tenets of the Gamers Bill of Rights? Maybe, maybe not depending on how you view it (I would lean toward “probably in regards to #2”). However, they didn’t break their stated return policy.

JM1 · 2010-09-10T13:09:05.000Z

Surly Bob:

Also, banning longtime customers for criticizing a game that you admit is flawed is like building a mosque near ground zero - sure, you can do that. It’s your right. Is it wise, though?

Nicely done. That’s some flamebait we can all admire.

Matt_Perkins · 2010-09-10T13:09:47.000Z

Dan_Theman:

Now, did they break tenets of the Gamers Bill of Rights? Maybe…

Too bad their CEO created that document and toted it as the holy grail of game developers. If that hadn’t happened, then maybe no one would have asked for returns… They made their bed, now they are laying it, complaining.

Sarkus · 2010-09-10T13:11:53.000Z

Dan_Theman:

As far as I can tell, they’re doing exactly as their policy states and sometimes more.

preorders are exempted entirely

you need to work with their tech to see if you can get it working if you want a full refund.

you need to request a return within 90 days of purchase (NOT of downloading it).

Those are all included in the policy, and the bit about preorders was also on the page when a person was going to actually preorder.

Store credit is probably being given on a case-by-case basis for those who have fallen out of the parameters. There may also be circumstances where full refunds are given that are still not technically in compliance.

So according to their policy:
[ul]
[li]If you preordered and want to return it and they’re willing to give you anything back, then that’s going above and beyond the stated policy.[/li][li]If you didn’t preorder and you don’t want to bother working with tech support, expect 75% back.[/li][li]If you didn’t preorder and you’ve worked with tech support but your issues still can’t be resolved, expect 100%.[/li][/ul]Mind you, I don’t know what any given forum member’s particulars are with their purchase and I also don’t know if they went to any lengths to resolve their issues with tech support (complaining about the game on a forum does not constitute using tech support).

Also, I’m sure there are circumstances where data entry mistakes may have been made. They’re only human.

Now, did they break tenets of the Gamers Bill of Rights? Maybe, maybe not depending on how you view it (I would lean toward “probably in regards to #2”). However, they didn’t break their stated return policy.

They may not have technically broken their policies in all cases, but you do have people who are getting their money back despite those conditions. Why is that? Why bother enforcing conditions when you have your CEO talking about how broken the title is and telling people “just get your money back”? From a PR standpoint it’s much better to just smile and say “no problem” if your actual goal is to retain customers long-term. And if you believe what Brad said on Troy’s podcast, the actual number of people asking for their money back is relatively tiny. If they’ve sold 82,000 copies of Elemental (Brad’s numbers) and you’ve only done “a few hundred” (again, Brad’s numbers) returns, then you shouldn’t be fighting anyone who wants to take advantage of the offer.

Mazuo · 2010-09-10T13:16:38.000Z

Alstein:

Name one official gaming forum, or even general gaming site, where you can go and call the mods liars and troll them, and not get banned.

I don’t believe trolling them is included in a simple statement saying they were dishonest about something like offered refunds or beta progress, etc. I just found it odd the overreaction that when they know they’re going to have angry customers over this they say that people are vile and nasty if they think Stardock lied and call them on it. Smearing customers certainly is not good PR after the rest of this mess and the implied threat of removal from the official forums is doubly bad.

In regard to the patching, I wasn’t doubting the effort they’ve put in. I was pointing out the disconnect that I hadn’t really seen addressed until what Oghier posted. When we have the situation as follows:

We’ve been totally incompetent boobs and can’t believe our own fail.
???
What we do from here on out will be great!

That step 2 there is what I’ve been wondering what they’re going to fill with. It’s great to recognize you screwed up, but then just patching the game without first taking the time or at least scheduling some time to fix what caused the disaster in the first place seems a pretty terrible idea. Brad taking a step back is certainly something, but when we keep getting strong statements about how the whole team thought the game was ready (or were suffering from just general obliviousness) more than just an eager CEO seems fouled up.

As for them listening to the forums and incorporating their suggestions, I heard that line for months during beta so I’m not too quick to believe it now, nor am I sure that approach can truly fix the fundamentals of the game and engine that seem to have so much wrong with them.

Dan_Theman · 2010-09-10T13:20:57.000Z

Sarkus:

They may not have technically broken their policies in all cases, but you do have people who are getting their money back despite those conditions. Why is that? Why bother enforcing conditions when you have your CEO talking about how broken the title is and telling people “just get your money back”? From a PR standpoint it’s much better to just smile and say “no problem” if your actual goal is to retain customers long-term. And if you believe what Brad said on Troy’s podcast, the actual number of people asking for their money back is relatively tiny. If they’ve sold 82,000 copies of Elemental (Brad’s numbers) and you’ve only done “a few hundred” (again, Brad’s numbers) returns, then you shouldn’t be fighting anyone who wants to take advantage of the offer.

I’m not disagreeing one bit. However, there’s a little bit of nerd rage in me when people are getting upset over the wrong things. They DIDN’T break the policy. They SHOULD make exceptions.

Disconnected · 2010-09-10T13:25:15.000Z

Dan_Theman:

As far as I can tell, they’re doing exactly as their policy states and sometimes more.

Well, problems usually are located somewhere between chair & keyboard. But which chair & keyboard? For example, one Danish release date customer was told (in accordance with Stardock’s refund policy) he couldn’t get a 100% refund unless he agreed to sort his trouble out with tech support.

To an American that might sound perfectly reasonable. To a Dane, it’s perfectly so perfectly unreasonable it’s actually illegal. Something Stardock ought to know when they sell games to Danes via DD. Fortunately the customer knew & got his refund - though he was understandably pissed with the borderline criminally poor customer service that most non-Danes just as understandably find exceptionally good.

Dan_Theman · 2010-09-10T13:27:56.000Z

Disconnected:

Well, problems usually are located somewhere between chair & keyboard. But which chair & keyboard? For example, one Danish release date customer was told (in accordance with Stardock’s refund policy) he couldn’t get a 100% refund unless he agreed to sort his trouble out with tech support.

To an American that might sound perfectly reasonable. To a Dane, it’s perfectly so perfectly unreasonable it’s actually illegal. Something Stardock ought to know when they sell games to Danes via DD. Fortunately the customer knew & got his refund - though he was understandably pissed with the borderline criminally poor customer service that most non-Danes just as understandably find exceptionally good.

Very good point.

Oghier · 2010-09-10T14:50:42.000Z

Surly Bob:

Also, banning longtime customers for criticizing a game that you admit is flawed…

They’re not banning people for criticizing the game. The Elemental boards are filled with critical posts. However, these posters are not acting like asshats. They’re pointing out flaws in the game, not making ad hominem attacks on the developers. Nobody likes being called a liar, thief or whatnot.

Being (justifiably) unhappy with a product does not give you license to act like a jerk. Even on the internet.

Destarius · 2010-09-10T15:05:25.000Z

Ugh, bought Elemental. Buggy as hell.