I do mind if the AI cheats to the degree where strategies like: “Hey, I want to go fuck that guy’s gold income, so Imma bust up his only gold mine” has no effect because the AI is a gold producing maniac with or without the added bonus of a resource I so desperately need.

Thank you for your contribution. It was very interesting.

(All that mucking about, and what happens? Answer:) You can beat “early” versions (up to 2.xx+) by simply building raiders and colony ships and blasting your way to end-stations with maybe 3-4 planets colonized as “fueling” stations in between(yes, at difficulty 7+ and with > 30 systems size).

Myea.

Personally I feel the worst “flaws” of constructing enemy parties, called AI or whatever, is a) only having them be capable by means of “cheating” massively IF the asymmetry is not inherently intentional by the game mechanic and b) making it too apparently exploitable without any sort of challenge beyond doing X, Y, and, at most, also Z.

The latter has over the course of the last 20 years proven to be tremendously hard to do or find in nearly any game.

Actually there is also a c), which would be making the AI TOO smart insofar as it being too quick to act/react/ponder etc to make playing against it any fun.
Basically too, hm, inhuman, I guess, and too actually machinelike.
Though that’s either rarely done (as it would kill most games outright) or it’s just circumventable by still finding exploit x, y or z :P

This applies particularly to shooters / action games, obviously, where it’s more a case of artificial dumbness, as you need to balance the stupidity as far away from insta-headshot as possible to not frustrate massively, yet still keep a challenge in.

See, isn’t it fun and smugly satisfying?

And since we’re talking about AI War now (wut?), I’ll chime in and say it never caught me either. It all seemed so impenetrable – but after being away from the game for awhile and reading about it, it seems that feeling of a steep learning curve and complexity gatekeepers stemmed from the fact that, well, the game threw way more options than you’d ever need at you. Damage Turrets, Freeze Turrets, and Paper/Rock/Scissors ships were all you really needed to win, the rest was just confusing flak.

Information of note:

Looks like the deadline for getting the XP free is going to be the 1.1 patch, which is looking like early October

There’s going to be a “First XP” that is free for all, but in reality it sounds more like a big patch.

http://forums.elementalgame.com/396523/page/3/#2772618

Well…

Beyond v1.1, the first free expansion pack will have a new combat system, new tactical battle system, book 2, and a host of other things but that won’t happen until Thanksigiving time frame.

The second expansion pack, next year, is also planned to be free for users who own the game before v1.1 is released (first expansion free for all, second free to those who were with us from before v1.1).

They can fix a lot by November. A second free “expansion” and I think there’s a possibility I’ll have gotten my money’s worth out of the game.

I was wondering how Stardock was gonna finance another 20 months of Elemental development. I guess charging for “expansions” is one way to do it. Hopefully they aren’t glorified patches.

That is only true on lower difficulties.

Other RTS AIs typically don’t know or have only a very basic idea of how to use their playing pieces. When they win, they don’t win through clever tactics, they win through overwhelming numbers.

AI War gives the human players a high degree of control over how much force the AI players can bring to bear, but on moderate & greater difficulties that’s not much of a handicap for the AI, since it does understand how to use its playing pieces.

The extension of that, is that you can’t beat the AI at moderate difficulty using only the basic 3 ship types, because all ways of using them have counters, and the AI understands and will use those counters.

At this point, I’ve probably poured around 200 hours of my life into AI Wars, and I am absolutely thrilled to say the AI is still a better tactician than I am. I’m not suggesting it behaves as intelligently as a good Chess AI. But it does behave much more intelligently than any other RTS game AI I have ever faced.

EDIT: To give an example, in my last AI War match, the AI decided to move virtually all its defenders from a very desirable planet, shortly after attacking me with a fleet composition I tore through with ease. Naturally I immediately moved my primary fleet into the vulnerable system. How did the AI respond? The moment I was committed to my attack on the planet, the AI moved in a fleet tailored to rip through mine, and blocked off my only avenue of retreat by positioning a force field over it. Basically, the AI saw what I had, prepared the right counter and build a honey trap for me.
It might sound like one of those rare lucky combination of factors that makes the AI seem momentarily brilliant, but it isn’t in AI War. On the higher difficulties, the AI simply is that good at figuring out how to use its stuff to devastating effect.

See, this is the same problem I have with EVE. AI War stories are cool, but for me, playing it ends up being mostly boring tedium.

It might sound like one of those rare lucky combination of factors that makes the AI seem momentarily brilliant, but it isn’t in AI War. On the higher difficulties, the AI simply is that good at figuring out how to use its stuff to devastating effect.

Either it’s a script or an emergent event (ie, a not quite so rare or lucky combination of factors).

I think you can break down that chain of events to some pretty simple logic choices:

1.) Attack with the fleet you easily defeated: AI War’s advertised zerg harassment waves.

2.) Moving its defenders: Keep the army somewhat mobile in order to keep the player guessing.

3.) Moving its defenders back: If the player’s attacking, move nearby armies in to defend.

That’s the basics. The special stuff:

a.) A custom tailored army: Probe the player, record his army composition, and build hard counters.

b.) The forcefield: A script. Weigh forces, if the AI has a good chance of winning, check to see what escapes the player has available and seal them (especially if there’s only one exit with defenses waiting on the other side to prevent a chase). That or something absurdly random.

Of course, it could all be a fancy script that’s executed when certain conditions are met.

The important thing is, of course, that it seemed like the AI had pulled off some master human-like plan. That’s good AI.

They have budget set aside for it at the start, that’s how Stardock does it. I think they only spent half their $3 mil budget by launch.

Also, Brad said in forum posts that they’re more concerned about keeping loyal customers then making short-term profit- which is something that is good for long-term profit. This is why we see so many scummy decisions from the larger publishers- they’re forced to think in the short-term by shareholders. Large corps tend to be short-sighted and risk-averse by nature.

Independent companies like Stardock and Valve get to take longer-term approaches, but are more vulnerable to brainfarts, like what Brad had a few of when making this game.

I’m sure Stardock can fix a lot of stuff by November- I just can’t see fixes+ enough new contact to warrant calling it an expansion pack being done in time. Then again, it’s free, so it’s really just a patch no matter how good or bad it is. I expect mods to start popping up once the patching slows down though, so not too concerned either way on that.

Indeed, the important thing is that clever stuff happens. However interesting the why’s & how’s are, they make no difference while playing.

That said, I strongly doubt it has a list of hard counters, because, well… The game has an insane amount of units, almost all of which have just one very specific weakness, and all of which can be used in any combination. Creating a half-decent list of hard counters seems like an impossible task. I assume it’s instead the product of some very good fuzzy logic. But I don’t actually know.
The force-field thing has to be scripted to some extent, though, because it’s happened to me more than once and I know I’m not the only one it has happened to.

But like you said, the in-game results are what matters, and in AI War the in-game results are pretty amazing. Even after all the time I’ve spend playing, the AI is still teaching me how.

Disconnected, thanks for sharing your deep experience with the AI in AI War: Fleet Command with us! I’m very glad and relieved to hear that it indeed is as good as the rumours had it. Chris Park always struck me as an exceptionally capable individual and it’d be strange if their games didn’t reflect that.

Here’s him yesterday talking about that and offering more very candid post mortem analysis. Original post at the Elemental forum.

And more from the same thread (original post).

Yea, we’re not going for epic tactical battles. MOM is our influence, not total war.

Well, if you farm monsters (something I wasn’t aware of as a strategy and I made the AI) you can totally flatten the AI.

Oh man what? Is he serious?

The layoffs we had at Stardock were painful but allowed us to move back to our traditional model of not relying on game revenue to pay the bills and give us the luxury of focusing on Elemental until it is the game we all want.

Hey, your unemployment is my luxury! Guys, is the castle done yet?

OK, now this ‘fixing’ by paid expansions has me nervous. Am I shooting myself in the foot by not returning the game? How long do I have to do this and how do you initiate the procedure to return the game? I bought it about 2 weeks before it was released.

I do not want to hold on to this game for 6 months or a year waiting to be fixed only to find out that the fixes are 5 paid expansion packs that I would get for “free” if I did a new purchase of elemental, most likely at a discount at some future point.

That’s not what is happening. The first expansion is free to everyone. The second expansion is free to everyone who owned the game prior to the 1.1 patch, which will be sometime in Oct or Nov. In short, the ‘fixes’ are free. The relevant quotes from Brad are all referenced upthread.

As for refunds, I generally hate to rehash but I can’t blame you for not wanting to wade too deeply into this thread for the answer:

If you preordered, you gave up the automatic right to a refund. HOWEVER, it seems to be handled on a case-by-case basis and the results tend to be more customer friendly than a “No soup for you” response. You would want to contact customer support if you wanted to pursue that avenue. Just keep in mind, there is no guarantee you’ll get anything.

Also as an FYI, the general return policy @ Stardock is if there’s a technical issue and tech support can’t fix it, they give you a full refund. If it’s not a technical issue or you don’t feel like working with tech support, they give you 75%. Preorders are ineligible for refunds (except where local laws require otherwise, eg - in Norway). FWIW, it’s a much better policy than you’ll find at Steam.

I’m hoping he’s drastically understanding the AI problems just for brevity’s sake.

Man, I hope so. Saying “I totally didn’t know that someone else on my team was allowing players to farm monsters in my game that featured taking a sovereign around to farm monsters” is a really terrible excuse.