5501

This thread is like the Stockholm Syndrome for strategy games. I don’t know about anyone else, but when I buy a game for $50 I expect the game to work. I purposefully didn’t pay for the beta but it seems that unless Stardock changes it’s shitty policies I’ll be paying 25% for the 1.05 beta. :(

5502

I have the same problems with Dominions, I always feel I’m missing something or doing something wrong.

About GalCiv2, my take is that the first run, is a great game and very enjoyable, designing ships is fun, the AI is interesting and as you say, there is lot of stuff to do and balance. The problem came (for me, at least), with the second campaign, I didn’t feel there was enough variety to be interesting and I loathed the research tree, so I found myself following the same steps. I fully agree that Dark Avatar improved the game a lot because it made each campaign more different.

I wish Elemental had an AI as fun as the one in GalCiv, I could have fun with the actual systems if only the rivals were more interesting and challenging.

5503

Well, Brad has said the first two expansions (one later this year and another scheduled for next year) are now slated to be free to those who bought the game prior to 1.1.

My guess is you’ll know by then whether getting more expansions will be worthwhile.

5504

Nobody is claiming it’s a guaranteed ‘classic,’ but many do expect it to become a good game. Reasoning:

  • The history of other SD releases (chiefly GalCiv II) shows SD’s ability to make sweeping improvements. Tom’s latest article on Fidgit discusses this.

  • SD’s CEO has told us that the whole dev team will stick with the project. He believes their business model requires them to turn the game around.

  • That same CEO has a chip on his shoulder about this project. His ego is at stake. Also, he appears to own the company, so he can make that kind of decision.

  • SD has a small, but fanatical following. Combine this with a mod-friendly product, and we can expect some good crowdsourced content. This is obviously a long-term bonus, though.

It may take a while. In fact, I suspect that it will be early next year before the game is really worthwhile. Perhaps I’ll just pretend Brad did decide to delay launch until that second retail window ;)

5505

Those are pretty much the reasons I think it will become quite good also, with two other caveats

  • Brad has shown that he is good at AI improvements in particular, and AI really helps to make a game classic

  • The core of the game is there, it’s the stuff around it that’s a Frankenstein mish-mash.

5506

I disagree with this. I can’t even find the core game yet because all the systems are disparate and many are broken anyway.

This is why I’m not optimistic that I’ll ever get the “not-MoM” game they marketed this as.

5507

Well, it’s most certainly not MoM, right? Now someone quickly put up the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner!

5508

Eh, Demigod was pretty much abandoned after troubled times, I’m not assuming Elemental will be any different. The whole dev team sticking with the project still doesn’t give me any sense of confidence as they made the mess to begin with. As for Brad’s ego being at stake, it sorta was upon release. Look how that worked out. For the last point, it’s a pretty sad day when you’re counting on unpaid modders to cobble something together into a fun game after taking people’s money for it. They also can’t do jack with the myriad of problems plaguing the stability of the Kumquat engine.

5509

Except Demigod wasn’t really a full Stardock game, it was developed externally (just like Sins of a Solar Empire). And as such they could very well quick it to the curb quite easily.

— Alan

5510

After talk of doing no such thing was my point. They were supposedly committed to Demigod not long ago.

5511

Chill, bro. I like nice 3D graphics too. When I said everybody likes personality, I was including myself. I just also happen to be a powergamer who probably spends too much time playing games and thinking out loud about how they could be better.

5512

Curiously, those are the factors that makes me highly sceptical Elemental will ever amount to a fun game.

The sweeping changes Oghier mentioned were fairly superficial ones. To use the obvious example someone else already brought up: the resource systems in GalCiv2 never changed. It has been a long while since I played GalCiv2 without the expansions, but if memory serves, the closest thing to genuine redesign were the changes made to espionage - and I say “closest thing” here, because the espionage system didn’t have any interdependencies (that I’m aware of anyway).

The modability of Elemental isn’t anywhere near what was advertised right now. Sure, there’s several highly ambitious TC WIPs right now that require fundamental changes to the game mechanics. I’ve been working on one myself since SD announced we’d be able to re-write the game mechanics from the ground up. But the thing is, it can’t actually be done. Not yet anyway. And Brad has dropped more than one hint recently that the plans to facilitate that sort of thing have been scrapped.

The claim that the “core game is there”… I’m having the hardest time trying to understand what could make someone make that claim right now. By any standard I can think of, the core game is the problem right now. Which makes Elemental’s issues a very different sort of thing than the issues SD has transformed into rainbows & unicorns in the past - which I’m not disputing they have. GalCiv2 was one of my all-time favourite games and ToTA made almost everything about it moar betterer.

Which all leads to my present conclusion that SD probably can’t save Elemental: it’s too late to make the sweeping, fundamental changes the game needs, SD still thinks the myriad problems are unrelated to the systems design, and the plans to let modders have a go at making a game out of Elemental have been scrapped.

… Surprising a silly little game can make me feel bad. But at least I’m not Brad. I can’t begin to imagine how much it must suck to finally be in a position to deliver your creative dream-baby, only to have it turn out to be a hideous little gremlin that bites your face off and tries to destroy your reputation. Poor guy.

5513

“Broken in its core concepts”. The game could be entirely bug free and it would still have myriad problems that are not easily solved, because it has not been designed properly.

I said it pages ago and I’ve not changed my mind - there is not a single thing about Elemental that I consider worth keeping beyond the very basic concept of the game itself.

5514

But clearly some people disagree with this. I mean it’s fine that you don’t think it can be fixed, and maybe it will never satisfy you (not because you are too picky, but just because you find the design to be inherently flawed from the start). But some people are enjoying the game right now. So I’m not sure why you keep saying this, as though it were definitive.

5515

I’m all for Elemental kicking ass sometime in the future, and Starock regaining face after this colossal fuck-up they pushed out to their fans, but I gotta be honest – I feel that people who claim they are enjoying this game are either lying, delusional, or are easily entertained (like the folks who are obsessed with shiny objects or funny pet videos).

I want to love this game, but right now the game does not want to be loved.

5516

The point of the post was to explain what the topic of conversation actually is to people like mtkafka who think it’s still about bugs and crashes.

People can enjoy pretty much anything. There are people on the SA forums who are gutted that APB has gone down because they had 200+ hours of “some of the best gaming I’ve ever had”. Enjoyment is highly subjective.

But when you can reel off poor design decisions and the answer from the fans of the game is “that doesn’t bother me too much” or “I think they’ll improve it” or “I’m having fun anyway”, what’s there to say? When the CEO’s continued posts on the subject show a breathtaking lack of understanding of both game design and the problems with his product, what can you say?

Edit: I’m not going to have a go at people for liking the game. I am currently reinstalling Warhammer Online.

5517

I think nearly all of us can agree that the game would have been better, had they delayed launch until February and continued to work on it. So, let’s see where we are early next year and go from there. This being QT3, the thread will be necro’d and we’ll see whether the optimists or skeptics have the better part of it.

LOTRO is too fun for me to start another MMO. But I do miss my little squig herder. Too fun!

5518

IIRC, you played the game pretty solidly for almost two weeks before you really soured on it, so it could simply be that it took that much time for the games failings to really become annoying enough to frustrate you. I know that was the case for me. I also think that the more people constantly compare it to MoM, the more negative they tend to be. I realize that was the market Stardock was going after, but as someone who hasn’t played much MoM since that game was new, it really isn’t playing a role in how I view this game. So my hate “because it’s not MoM” is pretty limited.

Now, that doesn’t mean that Stardock will be able to fix the game. But not everyone is going to be happy, no matter what they do. Heck, some of the things they are talking about changing are not exactly my personal preference already. Some people aren’t going to be able to get beyond the launch failure, even if Elemental next year at this time is one of the best TB strategy gams out.

5519

No, I played it for two weeks before I shared my opinion. I had pretty much soured on it within the first couple games. It was being piled on at the time, and one more voice wasn’t going to add anything to the discussion. I wanted to make sure I was giving it a fair shake because I am notoriously put off by 4x games when I first start trying to get into them (It takes me a while to feel comfortable with them).

I know that was the case for me. I also think that the more people constantly compare it to MoM, the more negative they tend to be.
I never played MoM, but I did play AoW:SM, and although I wasn’t expecting a redo of that game, I was expecting something much closer to it than what was delivered – but the similarities (or lack thereof) compared to other fantasy 4x games aren’t really what frustrate me about the game. I am not expecting a clone or a sequel to anything in particular, I just want it to be fun. Sure I wouldn’t mind an updated version of this game or that game, but whether I get that or not isn’t a big issue for me.

Now, that doesn’t mean that Stardock will be able to fix the game. But not everyone is going to be happy, no matter what they do. Heck, some of the things they are talking about changing are not exactly my personal preference already. Some people aren’t going to be able to get beyond the launch failure, even if Elemental next year at this time is one of the best TB strategy gams out.
Of all the talk I’ve seen I haven’t seen anything substantial in relation to specific core issues I want them to change and/or fix. In my mind I’ve pretty much already written the game off as a total loss, but I’ll be keeping up to date with all the patches and news that comes down the line as it is doled out.

In a dream world I’d like a game with the racial (units, skills and magic) diversity of Age of Wonders: Shadowmagic, the AI, diplomacy, city(world/realm) management screens, and trade/barter system of GalCivII, the tech tree and unit customization of Alpha Centauri, tactical combat of King’s Bounty, the city building, tile management and rare resources of CivIV, and a heavily modified (and fleshed out) quest/adventure and dynasty system of Elemental… but these aren’t really the standards I’m holding this game to.

5520

I don’t think those are the same thing.

A lot of people find the process of learning how a game works to be enjoyable.
A lot of people do not appear to be able to learn how Elemental works by playing the game.
Most of the people who complain the game mechanics are broken appear to have a very clear and fairly accurate idea of how the game works.
Most of the people who don’t complain about broken mechanics, or disagree that the mechanics are broken, do not appear to have a very clear or accurate idea of how the game works.

All of which makes me think that some percentage of Elemental players are currently going: “I’m having fun trying to figure this stuff out, all sorts of surprising stuff keeps happening to me, and I’m frequently getting my ass kicked. Ergo, the mechanics aren’t broken, the balance isn’t terrible and the AI isn’t shit.” Unfortunately the observation doesn’t support that conclusion.