5541

I don’t know, but that name is awfully suspicious. I don’t trust it/him/her.

5542

Well, Brad’s already starting to back out on the “fixing design ASAP” thing:

(from forums.elementalgame.com/396905/)

So basically, bankroll Stardock before September 30th and get Elemental: GOTY two years in advance!

5543

As long as adding a pile of non-boring spells in in group ‘A’, I’m fine with that plan.

5544

Well, i generall agree with this post, especially after the recent updates. I’m a huge MOM fan…and nothing ever felt very close to it. Elemental feels a lot more like MOM than Lords of Magic or AOW or the Civ version of MOM! Elemental has got some growing to do to be its own classic, but I really hope they keep evolving and it takes hold with some industrious Modders that can complete the tranformation to the MOM clone I’ve given up on for ages…

5545

I’ve put a little time into the newest version. One thing I noticed is that the amount of money you get from defeating local monsters has dropped way off. Probably part of the move to deal with the money heavy issues.

From a technical standpoint, the game seems to run pretty well at this point. Obviously the major design issues are still there, but from a “playable” standpoint the game is in pretty good shape.

5546

He’s using the word ‘expansion’ for what I’d call a large patch.

5547

ROTFL. Hey, it worked once!

So the A version is what Brad originally conceived for Elemental, eh? Global mana pool and resource conversion and everything? So he did know that the game wasn’t finished at release, then? He knew it didn’t have those things.

Pretending to read Brad’s mind is no fun any more.

5548

To an extent that’s true. But because they are throwing in something they had planned to sell seperately (the continuation of the campaign), they are referring to it as an expansion. And Stardock expansions, like is the case with Paradox, often incorporate major game changes. It’s really hard to say how unfair this approach is until we see what shape the game is as of version 1.1, which is supposed to include major gameplay changes.

Basically, 1.1 is supposed to fix a number of gameplay issues. Then the first “expansion” will come out before the end of the year and change some other stuff. That expansion is free to everyone, no matter when you buy the game. Another expansion will come out next year and only be free to people who bought the game prior to version 1.1 and is basically a thankyou to people who purchased and kept the game despite it’s pre-1.1 condition. I don’t see where the problem is unless 1.1 + the first expansion is still totally crap.

5549

The state of the campaign in the release version is embarrassing, though. Sounds like the expansion contains what should’ve been in the box, content-wise.

5550

Nevermind!

5551

Could it be because you’re just reading your own prejudices into what he is saying? Having your own worst thoughts confirmed is not as fun as actually listening to people.

This is what he said: “So with A, the game mechanics revolve around exploring the world, exploiting world resources, expanding your control, and exterminating enemies. A will evolve as we go to 1.1 with more techs and improvements that let players convert 1 resource that they have a lot in to one they are lacking in. Spells will draw from a global mana pool and the UI will be cleaned up and content across the board expanded on. For good or bad, minus bugs, A is what we originally conceived of for War of Magic and it should rise or fall based on that.”

This can easily be read as just unfortunately mixing a statement about the original design intent for A with a couple of notes of the new direction it’s taking as a result of player feedback. We’ve seen by now Wardell is not always the most unambiguous communicator in the world.

There is extensive evidence for reading the above like this and not like you did. Wardell has expressed time and again their surprise at the initial player feedback about the design. This latest comment can easily be fitted into that framework.

I think he’d be glad to clear his intent up if someone were just to ask him. He is one of the most open communicators this business has seen – certainly at their level of revenue. There’s no need to keep ascribing such malicious intent to his actions. This is beginning to smack of paranoia.

Continually sniping at him for every little thing he says should be beneath Qt3. Have we now suddenly become such a developer-unfriendly crowd? We should be better than this. I’m ashamed of us. Man, Mat Gallant sure did Qt3 no favours by starting us down this path with his childish tantrums mixed in with pathetic cross-site, every-friend-of-Brad-is-my-enemy stalking.

Arakyd, please note this rant is in no way aimed at you personally but at the general low level of discourse we have for a noticeable part stooped to over some weeks now, helped along by some Elemental forum expats from the lo-fi end of the spectrum. I hope we are by now able to just move past it (as I’m glad to note we already to some extent have).

5552

Yes, absolutely. Wardell in the v1.08 Change Log: “We intend to provide an option for the amount of gildar that will be present in the world (both in terms of loot and the amount of gold that gold deposits provide). We dramatically reduced the amount of loot that monsters provide because it was not intended for players to run their economy “harvesting” wolves and other creatures but rather supplement. We recognize that others enjoy this and will address this as an option in future versions.”

5553

This.
Over the years Qt3 has done a good job of instilling this feeling in its new members. I hope this thread is the exception to the rule.

5554

Jarmo, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of Brad’s statement. “A is what we originally conceived of for War of Magic” is pretty unambiguous.

Brad is an open communicator in the sense that he communicates a lot. He is anything but an open communicator in the sense of being consistent and following through on what he says. He gets huge mileage out of it because a lot of people are willing to cut him a lot of slack.

Developers are never objective about their game. If one cares about the game itself, either as a developer or as an interested gamer, one has to listen to criticism from thoughtful outsiders, and one has to cultivate an environment where such people feel welcome. The best contribution in this thread that was actually about the game was flamed by a developer, so to the extent that this board cultivates an attitude of giving developers a pass, I stop caring about what this board has to say. I’m no fan of Matthew Gallant’s posts about Elemental either, but there’s more than one way to devalue a community.

5555

The way I look at it, there is PLENTY to be critical about in Elemental, but Stardock has shown a willingness to change most things in the past. It’s not like we’re talking about David Sirlin here.

The key is to push respectfully on the forums.

5556

Being constructively critical is one thing. I’m pretty sure this:

So he did know that the game wasn’t finished at release, then? He knew it didn’t have those things.
… does not qualify. To be constructive, it must provide feedback that is usable to make something better. I’m not sure how listening to/reading about someone essentially calling you a liar would be at all helpful whether you lied or not.

You refer to the dangers of cultivating and attitude on this board which would give developers a pass, but an attitude that goes over the top in chastising is just as bad if not worse. You also speak to the need for an environment that makes people feel welcome, but do so in the wake of making a comment that only serves to create a negative attitude toward Brad. There’s a bit of a disconnect there, albeit likely well intentioned as a way to support a friend who received a little return fire.

Don’t get me wrong, you have every right to be ticked off about the state of the game (assuming you bought it) and to post what you did. But seriously, can’t we just keep the criticism about the game instead of the game AND Brad?

5557

Arakyd, thanks for your thoughtful comment. I respectfully submit that what Wardell (in light of his many previous statements) meant by “So with A, the game mechanics revolve around exploring the world, exploiting world resources, expanding your control, and exterminating enemies. A will evolve as we go to 1.1 with more techs and improvements that let players convert 1 resource that they have a lot in to one they are lacking in. Spells will draw from a global mana pool and the UI will be cleaned up and content across the board expanded on. For good or bad, minus bugs, A is what we originally conceived of for War of Magic” should be read like this: bolded parts are the main point, italic parts are another unfortunate miscommunication (two sentences about the future direction confusingly placed smack dab in the middle of what should have been the only point in this important statement).

I certainly don’t advocate giving Wardell a free pass for any and all past blunders but haven’t they already been mercilessly enough lampooned on this forum? I’m very afraid that we might be nurturing the deadeningly negative environment that is the bread and butter of most Internet gaming forums in Qt3 by continuing the sniping at Wardell. There have been overreactions on both sides but to get back to the constructive, refreshingly positive atmosphere that has so long been the norm here we should be able to just let at least some of the petty grudges go.

Wardell has apologised many times for his flaming here. How many of his detractors are able to say the same?

Dan, Alstein, very good comments!

5558

Does it matter? Since when are angry customers supposed to apologize to the guy taking full responsibility for the blundering mess that disappointed them and wasted their time and money?

Stardock generates all kind of heartache because they just don’t learn. GalCiv2 only managed to achieve some degree of personality two years after its release, but as a result of Twilight of Arnor, is now showered with praise. We forget the first year between the original and Dark Avatar where the game got boring after two weeks of purchase and always felt like wrestling with a spreadsheet.

I can promise you this: If Elemental was released with an engine that ran smoothly, didn’t crash, and AI that could actually play the game, fan reaction would be exactly the same as it was when GalCiv2 was released: A decent chunk saying they really enjoy it and provide a short list of suggestions, then disappearing from the forums for good as they lose interest, Brad’s Cult of Yesmen who promise everything’s fine and don’t you dare touch their baby or tell frog-god what to do, and a relatively stable group of people constantly petitioning for the game to change and become more transparent.

You’d think that, you know, they’d have tried to skip some steps and make Elemental like Twilight of the Arnor right off the bat. You’d think they’d have realized “Gee, the only consistent complaint after TotA across all of the board’s subfactions is that the economy makes no sense and needs to be clearly defined along with other transparency issues.”

But they didn’t. They coughed up something equivalent to a late alpha of GalCiv2 devoid of any personality with next to nothing for documentation and completely opaque mechanics about combat that their developers and CEO utterly refuse to clarify, outright ignoring every question levied against them.

I just find it astonishing how many people love Stardock after the company proving time and time again that they have no clue what they’re doing when it comes to design. I guess we all thought we’d be OK after Twilight of the Arnor, that they finally “got it” and would use that as an example to strive for… but boy were we wrong.

5559

Good luck with pushing respectfully on the forums. It didn’t work for the beta. Neither did the huge amounts of very constructive criticism. Willingness to change is not the same as change.

I don’t find other forums to be particularly deadening or negative, in general. Being positive is fine, but being positive about the wrong things is a great way to prove how deadening positivity can be.

5560

I’m astonished that they continue to push the crowd-sourced mentality of design even after such a massive failure. It’s obvious that Stardock is very selective about the voices in the crowd that they choose to listen to, and that they always will be. Asking the fans what they want out of Elemental at this point is going to lead absolutely nowhere. No one, fanboy or detractor, is going to be able to set aside their emotions for a reasonable response.

It’s far too late to save Elemental from a complete lack of direction. You can’t patch in good design.