Elemental all-purpose thread

KevinC · 2010-10-05T12:41:38.000Z

Telefrog:

Either way, I don’t think Civ 5 needs to worry about Elemental stealing their players.

I didn’t think that’s what he was saying. The way I understood his point was that, for whatever reason, there seems to be a number of players who have not taken to Civ5 or have tired of it quickly. That may open the door for a potential comeback for Elemental, if Stardock is able to fix the game and make it into something decent.

I know I’m kind of in that boat. Leading up to this August, I thought I was going to be in gaming bliss with Elemental and Civ5 both coming out. Unfortunately, both fell flat for me so I’m still looking to get my TBS fix. If I was hopelessly addicted to Civ5 like I was for I-IV, an Elemental expansion / re-release / whatever wouldn’t even be a blip on my radar.

kerzain · 2010-10-05T12:45:23.000Z

I just don’t see Elemental as the alternative for frustrated to CivV players though. Obviously there will be a couple players who would be interested in both, but I’d lean more towards a resurgence of older Civ games (Maybe I am speaking from personal bias/experience though, since I recently reinstalled Alpha Centauri and have a few recent CivIV games under my belt) than a sudden movement towards a fantasy TBS game.

Blackadar · 2010-10-05T13:02:07.000Z

In all actuality, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a Civ V drop off in terms of the number of players. The game was released two weeks ago and people aren’t going to continually play the same game forever. In the last week, I’ve dabbled in LOTRO, Sims 3, Arcanum and SimCity 4 along with playing Civ V. I’m probably not going to play Civ V tonight…not because the game is lacking, but because I don’t want to play a TBS game tonight. But when I do want a strategy game, Civ V will be at the top of the list.

Simply put, the non-antedotal evidence suggests that a shitload of people are still playing Civ V. There have been a number of polls (here and elsewhere) that all say the same thing - that it’s a very good or great game. The review scores support those polls. As such, the “massive backlash” or “shaky legs” that JJ is claiming about Civ V just doesn’t hold water. It’s stuff he’s pulling out of his ass in order to try to justify some sort of magical comeback of Elemental based on the goodwill of the reviewers and other factors not grounded in reality.

Elemental + multiple patches may turn out to be a fine game (though I think the odds are against it at this point). But don’t try claiming that there’s been some sort of Civ V misstep that is going to lend itself to Elemental’s favor. That’s just patently absurd, even before you start really thinking about time-lines of expansions/patches for both products. The first “real” expansion for Elemental is scheduled for 1QTR of 2011…does anyone think that Civ V’s launch will have any impact at all on the reception/adoption of Elemental at that point?!?

Alstein · 2010-10-05T14:03:37.000Z

I think Elemental will pick up players gradually over time as it improves. A game that constantly improves tends to keep its base longer. That said, as long as I end up with a good game in the end, I’ll be happy even if I’m the only one who bought it.

James_Johnson · 2010-10-05T16:17:47.000Z

I think there’s actually a pretty healthy crossover in terms of people who are interested in Elemental and people who are interested in Civ5. The 4X genre is starved, and has been for awhile. We take what we can get.

I’d like to clarify some things as I apparently didn’t do a great job of clearly stating my points to begin with. I’m not predicting a magical comeback of Elemental. My comments are counter-points to the following quotation…

Razgon:

To be honest, I think that unless they do something spectacular, they missed their chance with this game, which, is really sad.

… to the tune of Stardock isn’t anywhere close to being out of the game yet. Again, I’m no Stardock fan, so whether they’re still in or not isn’t important to me beyond wanting to get something close to my money’s worth out of the game.

However, I do think they’re still in it – and very much so – for the reasons I stated before.

kerzain · 2010-10-05T16:27:19.000Z

James Johnson:

I think there’s actually a pretty healthy crossover in terms of people who are interested in Elemental and people who are interested in Civ5. The 4X genre is starved, and has been for awhile. We take what we can get.

I think it is a one-way cross over. Anecdotally , I know plenty of people who buy Civ everything, plus table-top versions, but don’t give a shit about MoM/AoW-style fantasy games.

Alstein · 2010-10-06T07:03:29.000Z

http://forums.elementalgame.com/398521/page/3/#2796472

First expansion is being pushed back into 2011, and expanded in scope.
Still going to be free.

Maybe Elemental is doing better then we think.

TurinTur · 2010-10-06T07:36:44.000Z

Alstein:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/398521/page/3/#2796472

First expansion is being pushed back into 2011, and expanded in scope.
Still going to be free.

Maybe Elemental is doing better then we think.

?? How are they doing better by this news?

They have noticed that they don’t have the man-hours to release the expansion at the end of the year, as they wanted, so they are delaying it. To justify the dealy, and because they don’t want to be killed by the fans, they are saying the scope of the expansion have increased a bit.

Dan_Theman · 2010-10-06T07:43:49.000Z

That’s one interpretation of several, and certainly not what’s being said by the only people who would know.

Cubit · 2010-10-06T07:45:57.000Z

Alstein:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/398521/page/3/#2796472

First expansion is being pushed back into 2011, and expanded in scope.
Still going to be free.

Maybe Elemental is doing better then we think.

Yeah…no.

I think everyone in this thread could have told them that releasing the first expansion in November was pushing things a bit. Brad and co. desperately need to take some project management courses at the local CC.

Razgon · 2010-10-06T07:50:04.000Z

What, a release date pushed back? That unpossible!

This must make Stardock the worst game developer ever!

Blackadar · 2010-10-06T08:04:05.000Z

Alstein:

http://forums.elementalgame.com/398521/page/3/#2796472

First expansion is being pushed back into 2011, and expanded in scope.
Still going to be free.

Maybe Elemental is doing better then we think.

You just can’t keep a good fanboy down!

At the same time, I admire Alstein’s determination in remaining an optimist.

Destarius · 2010-10-06T08:16:25.000Z

Here’s a possibility - FfH3 is released as a Civ 5 mod and crushes the hell out of Elemental version whatever whenever.

James_Johnson · 2010-10-06T11:11:58.000Z

kerzain:

I think it is a one-way cross over. Anecdotally , I know plenty of people who buy Civ everything, plus table-top versions, but don’t give a shit about MoM/AoW-style fantasy games.

Oh you’re right, I know several may-as-well-be-flight-simmers who only buy Civilization games.

However, FFH2 was pretty popular. I think that may have pointed some Civ fans toward the fantasy stuff – even if it’s something like MoM for the Civ1 nostalgia.

And Alstein’s point is that Stardock is improving by actually delaying shit. I don’t see how that’s a fanboy remark. But then, you already knew that.

Alstein · 2010-10-06T12:12:35.000Z

James Johnson:

Oh you’re right, I know several may-as-well-be-flight-simmers who only buy Civilization games.

However, FFH2 was pretty popular. I think that may have pointed some Civ fans toward the fantasy stuff – even if it’s something like MoM for the Civ1 nostalgia.

And Alstein’s point is that Stardock is improving by actually delaying shit. I don’t see how that’s a fanboy remark. But then, you already knew that.

The reason for the delay is that they plan to add more stuff. That’s different then delay due to running around like headless chickens. To me, that’s not a bad thing, that’s a good thing.

As for the fanboy comment. Yeah, I"ll admit I’m guilty of it. Doesn’t mean I can’t be critical of stuff here and there though.

JM1 · 2010-10-06T12:14:33.000Z

Alstein:

The reason for the delay is that they plan to add more stuff.

You honestly believe that?

KevinC · 2010-10-06T12:30:25.000Z

JM:

You honestly believe that?

Brad says the reasons will “be clear” next week, so I’m guessing there’s an infodump of some sort coming up, I suppose we can come to conclusions then.

I don’t really care about the reasons or the semantics, though, I already paid $50 for this game. It’ll take as much time as it takes to get it into a good game (if it ever gets there, that is).

Dan_Theman · 2010-10-06T14:06:01.000Z

KevinC:

Brad says the reasons will “be clear” next week, so I’m guessing there’s an infodump of some sort coming up, I suppose we can come to conclusions then.

I don’t really care about the reasons or the semantics, though, I already paid $50 for this game. It’ll take as much time as it takes to get it into a good game (if it ever gets there, that is).

Interesting statement from Brad. I’m certainly curious, but good point - it will take however long it will take.

darkurthe · 2010-10-06T14:30:48.000Z

Jarmo:

Or they are evidence of an iterative design process that plays out in the public eye in an astonishing display of openness. The negative reactions are one reason why unfinished work is not usually presented to the general audience.

They are trying stuff and seeing how it works. This is how game design happens. Usually it happens behind closed doors.

The obvious addendum is that it usually happens before the game is shipped but we’ve been over that endlessly. They thought they were finished but they were mistaken and bla bla and ad infinitum.

Brad Wardell is kind of the Ed Wood of software development right now. Tor Johnson can nearly knock over a set and that is a wrap is kinda how Elemental got pushed out the door. For whatever reason Brad thought his snowflake of a game was perfect, just like Tor walking through the door frame…

What kills me about Elemental is that basically all the mistakes we see were unforced errors on Stardocks’ part. All of what you speak should have been wrangled in Q/A and play testing. Hindsight being 20/20 had this been pushed back to, say, January it would probably be a good game rather than a 50 dollar beta.

arakyd · 2010-10-06T14:45:42.000Z

Elemental’s release date was also pushed back. Why should anyone care that the release date for the expansion is being pushed back? I know people drool over Stardock’s openness, but what is better: the developer’s new clothes, or a good game? I regret any comments I’ve made about developers, positive or negative, Stardock and and others, because they all distract from what is actually important: the games themselves. Elemental as it currently exists still sucks (or doesn’t suck, if you really want to make that case). End of story, unless and until the game itself SUBSTANTIVELY changes. Everything else is noise.