Elemental all-purpose thread

[erikg88]

8 instances of the word ‘great’ in the post KevinC quoted.

[Alstein]

Actually, I probably do have the receipt, but no, I never installed it. I’m waiting until it’s been improved. Why would I waste time on a game that is known to be unfinished?

And Kevin, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the second expansion was now being offered for free to those who bought the game at release?

If you have the receipt, or some record of having bought it- they’ve said support will hook you up. I’d have at least looked to see how bad it was. I haven’t played Elemental at all the last two-three weeks due to knowing it’s gonna change.

1st XP- free period.
2nd XP- free with the caveat listed above. Need either proof of purchase before 1 Nov, or to have installed or updated on Impulse before 1 Nov.

As for GBOR, I didn’t expect that to hold if shit hit the fan bad enough, and honestly, it didn’t. They’re still doing more then most though.

[rezaf]

Brad posts here.

Actually, is that still correct?

I know he didn’t object to dozens of pages of unfounded praise about Elemental before it was out, but when it was released and people started pointing out it’s many flaws, Brad said the tone on this board was getting too negative for him and, to my understanding, left, at least for the time being.
He had one of his employees stick around for a while, though, but by now, that one seems to be gone as well.

About the GBoR, well, I actually a TAD disappointed that they ran this whole “cigarettes and alcohole should be banned as well, they are drugs too” campaign and then got themselves caught at the airport with 50 kilograms of cocaine.

As for Elemental, I’ve given up on it and don’t really care at the time being, though a glimmer of hope remains that Elemental with patches or addOns, as a re-release or a sequel can become a game worth playing.

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rezaf

[Dan_Theman]

Actually, is that still correct?

I know he didn’t object to dozens of pages of unfounded praise about Elemental before it was out, but when it was released and people started pointing out it’s many flaws, Brad said the tone on this board was getting too negative for him and, to my understanding, left, at least for the time being.

I suspect that Brad will be gone for a very long while if not forever. However, please be fair and don’t just paint it as a “couldn’t stand the criticism” kind of flameout. Things got extremely personal and went waaaaay beyond what I think most of us find as acceptable discourse (on both sides) and I think he had the good sense to say “Screw it - if people want to chat to me, they can do it on my own forum.”

[rezaf]

Fair enough Dan.

To me it looked like Brad received a lot of praise for no graspable reason the first couple of dozen pages of this thread and gladly collected it all, and then he received a lot of flak for good reason and said “This is getting too personal” and left.
I was just trying to sum up the debate as I observed it as a non-participant, not reheat/restart it.

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rezaf

[Jason_Lutes]

Fair enough Dan.

To me it looked like Brad received a lot of praise for no graspable reason the first couple of dozen pages of this thread and gladly collected it all, and then he received a lot of flak for good reason and said “This is getting too personal” and left.
I was just trying to sum up the debate as I observed it as a non-participant, not reheat/restart it.

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rezaf

I don’t think many people would have weathered that storm. Brad is/was a member of this community, and he got a pretty harsh reality check. We can shake our heads in wonder about how his version of reality had so little correlation to the reaction of his customer base, but I have a hard time faulting him for backing out of this particular room of vitriol (some of which came from me).

[Robert_Sharp]

Robert, your understanding is correct, a second expansion is offered for free to those who purchased prior to Oct 31. I guess its a glass half full kind of situation, I see it as a good thing everyone is getting a free expansion that (hopefully) fixes the original game. I understand the situation you’re in and I hope you can find a receipt, I just didnt agree with the “getting screwed” statement.

Hopefully you’re able to get the second one for free. Best of luck with that!

I actually didn’t mean “getting screwed” to sound so vicious. I should have realized that in this particular thread, that would seem really bitter. But I’m actually not bitter about it at all. I knew how things were looking and could have canceled or gotten a refund. I didn’t, because I want to support this kind of game, and because I think Stardock will eventually make it right. So ‘getting screwed’ really just meant that I won’t get a benefit because I didn’t install the game when I bought it (I pre-ordered, actually).

In truth, Stardock doesn’t owe me ANY free expansions, so I didn’t mean for that to seem bitter, really.

[ckessel]

It’s perhaps worth noting that this thread would have died, much like any other thread on a game with a horrible failure of release, except for the fact that Stardock is committing to doing something. Whether that works out, we’ll see, but it’s awfully rare a failed title isn’t quickly shoved into the closet, everyone moves on and whistles like they’ve never heard of it.

Not defending the initial release, just pointing out that any free expansion at all is more than you’d usually get in this kind of situation.

[Robert_Sharp]

I’d have at least looked to see how bad it was.

I get why some people do that, but I just didn’t want to be have a bad impression of a game I’m hopeful will be fixed. I want to approach it clean the first time I play it. Often, if a game doesn’t do much for me at first, I just won’t come back to it, even if it is later improved (or people say it is). In order to avoid that, I thought I would wait until the game is what it is supposed to be.

I’ve made the mistake of just trying things before, when they weren’t fully baked. It leaves a bad taste, and sometimes even a kind of taste aversion, making it very difficult to give the game a second shot later.

[KevinC]

Yea, that’s a very good point. There’s some games (especially the MMO variety) that I’ve tried and have been in such an awful state at release, I just can’t muster up enough interest to actually reinstall and try again.

[Dan_Theman]

I get why some people do that, but I just didn’t want to be have a bad impression of a game I’m hopeful will be fixed. I want to approach it clean the first time I play it. Often, if a game doesn’t do much for me at first, I just won’t come back to it, even if it is later improved (or people say it is). In order to avoid that, I thought I would wait until the game is what it is supposed to be.

I’ve made the mistake of just trying things before, when they weren’t fully baked. It leaves a bad taste, and sometimes even a kind of taste aversion, making it very difficult to give the game a second shot later.

I can’t blame Robert one bit for his approach. The only reason I started my game up was to just verify it worked (it did!). I’m also planning on waiting it out and din’t want to play for fear it would spoil my opinion of a game that could shape up to be something good if not great.

That said, where did you pre-order, Robert? If it was from Impulse then you should still be fine because it was attached to your account. If not … well, one expansion out of two ain’t bad, right? ;)

[Alstein]

It’s perhaps worth noting that this thread would have died, much like any other thread on a game with a horrible failure of release, except for the fact that Stardock is committing to doing something. Whether that works out, we’ll see, but it’s awfully rare a failed title isn’t quickly shoved into the closet, everyone moves on and whistles like they’ve never heard of it.

Not defending the initial release, just pointing out that any free expansion at all is more than you’d usually get in this kind of situation.

Stardock can’t really afford to shove the title aside. Their business model is based off goodwill from post-release support. If they just shoved Elemental aside, they’d have a hard time getting people to pre-order GalCiv III whenever they start doing that. They still might , but a fixed up Elemental will make some be willing to be guinea pigs again (including myself).

[WarrenD]

I get why some people do that, but I just didn’t want to be have a bad impression of a game I’m hopeful will be fixed. I want to approach it clean the first time I play it. Often, if a game doesn’t do much for me at first, I just won’t come back to it, even if it is later improved (or people say it is). In order to avoid that, I thought I would wait until the game is what it is supposed to be.

I’ve made the mistake of just trying things before, when they weren’t fully baked. It leaves a bad taste, and sometimes even a kind of taste aversion, making it very difficult to give the game a second shot later.

Completely understand this myself, I’ve had games ruined for me because I was in the beta and never gave them a second chance when they were finished.

It’s rare for me to play a beta these days for that very reason.

[triggercut]

To me it looked like Brad received a lot of praise for no graspable reason the first couple of dozen pages of this thread and gladly collected it all

What does this even mean?

That’s how socially experienced human beings interact. If you are engaging in a conversation and someone pays you a compliment, it is considered good manners to graciously, if modestly, accept the compliment. Considering that many of those complimentary comments were coming from folks who were playing the beta of a very flawed game (and who seemed to be putting aside their own trepidations at the time), what was Brad supposed to respond with? “No no. The game’s not out yet, but I can assure you that on release it’ll disappoint you almost as much as MOO3?”

Having heard Mr. Wardell discuss the release of Elemental on podcasts and at the Stardock forums, this very disappointed customer is at least assured that he’s aware of all the criticism and seems to have accepted it in good faith. He didn’t need to hire someone like Kael, for instance, but he did. I’m not happy with my purchase of Elemental, and the Stardock brand is badly damaged (I’ll certainly never buy another Stardock game on day 1, and I imagine I’m scarcely the only one).

In the end, it’s forty or fifty bucks. I’ve spent that sort of money on worse things in my life. If forty or fifty bucks is a scare enough resource that it has some folks worked up to the point of verbal violence, I would submit that those same folks probably should not be spending that money on computer games in the first place, and should be investing that money in food, clothing, and shelter instead.

[Cubit]

If forty or fifty bucks is a scare enough resource that it has some folks worked up to the point of verbal violence, I would submit that those same folks probably should not be spending that money on computer games in the first place, and should be investing that money in food, clothing, and shelter instead.

What does this even mean?

[Disconnected]

What does this even mean?

That’s how socially experienced human beings interact. If you are engaging in a conversation and someone pays you a compliment, it is considered good manners to graciously, if modestly, accept the compliment.

The initial praise was about the fact that Stardock, a company that already had delivered one very good 4X, had taken it upon themselves to create a high fantasy 4X. Considering that a lot of the more vocal gamers (meaning: guys who frequent places like this) have been asking, begging & demanding exactly such a game for, oh, as many years as the interwebs have been around, and in that timeframe have gotten - compared to other genres - something approaching zero games, the praise should surprise no-one at all.

It’s much the same as me offering you free money, which you praise me for, until I deliver “money” made out of faeces, valid nowhere on planet Earth. At which point you’ll probably be just a little bit annoyed with me, or at least will feel disinclined to keep up the praise.

If forty or fifty bucks is a scare enough resource that it has some folks worked up to the point of verbal violence, I would submit that those same folks probably should not be spending that money on computer games in the first place, and should be investing that money in food, clothing, and shelter instead.

I’m guessing the money’s just the closest thing to a legit excuse for getting vocally fucking-angry that game X didn’t live up to the expectations.

[ShivaX]

In the end, it’s forty or fifty bucks. I’ve spent that sort of money on worse things in my life. If forty or fifty bucks is a scare enough resource that it has some folks worked up to the point of verbal violence, I would submit that those same folks probably should not be spending that money on computer games in the first place, and should be investing that money in food, clothing, and shelter instead.

Really? Cause I’ve seen people moved to physical violence for under five bucks.

If its not that big a deal, feel free to send me $50. In return I’ll send you the files for Master of Magic. In this scenario you actually got a better deal than I did with Elemental. You see I’d actually play MoM and enjoy it. Elemental isn’t even an overpriced coaster cause I have a digital copy.

[James_Johnson]

I don’t think many people would have weathered that storm. Brad is/was a member of this community, and he got a pretty harsh reality check. We can shake our heads in wonder about how his version of reality had so little correlation to the reaction of his customer base, but I have a hard time faulting him for backing out of this particular room of vitriol (some of which came from me).

Well, this forum, perhaps justifiably, ran him out of town.

The fanboys, or those with unintentionally short memories, will forgive him in a year. For the hardcore (even if they were Stardock lovers beforehand)? Brad’s reputation is pretty much shot.

I get the feeling that public enthusiast opinion is that Stardock is now the company that made Demigod, (and there was so much spin in Demigod’s case that who the hell knows what role they did or didn’t have), the second-ran, redundant, inferior Impulse platform, and the gaming atrocity that is Elemental. Oh, and that they’re reputation-crippled hypocrites thanks to their “Gamer’s Bill of Rights,” which turned out to be what every cynic expected it was: PR bullshit.

GalCiv? Commitment to quality? Honest transparency? Those parts of Stardock’s past are gone.

In the end, it’s forty or fifty bucks. I’ve spent that sort of money on worse things in my life. If forty or fifty bucks is a scare enough resource that it has some folks worked up to the point of verbal violence, I would submit that those same folks probably should not be spending that money on computer games in the first place, and should be investing that money in food, clothing, and shelter instead.

Trolololololol’in.

[Mark_Asher]

“For the hardcore (even if they were Stardock lovers beforehand)? Brad’s reputation is pretty much shot.”

And this means what? No pre-sales? No day one sales? If a new game is getting good word-of-mouth after a few weeks, these people may be on board to buy it.

In other words, I don’t think it’s a disaster that has a huge impact on the success of future games. It may mean fewer initial sales, but that can be easily overcome if they release a good game.

[Alstein]

Brad’s reputation will only be shot if Elemental isn’t fixed, or GalCivIII (99% sure that’s their next game) isn’t in a good state at launch. If both of those things happen, Stardock’s rep will be returned.

Stardock game budgets are based on pre-orders, which is why they didn’t post a loss on Elemental. (I think they made a tiny profit- Brad announced it as profitable but not what they wanted)