I’m in agreement with Farscry. It may not have been pretty or fun the the whole time, but being in the Elemental beta since it opened has been well worth it for the down and dirty look at how Stardock does things. I appreciated the in-game content and changes as well as the blog posts explaining the strategy behind each part of the game.
Mordrak
1763
I’m curious, what do people think defines an indie developer? Is there a size requirement of the company, size of the team, size of the development budget? Is it anyone working outside large established publishers? What defines a large publisher? Is an indie just a development team working without investors other than themselves?
Yeah, I wondered this as well - between SC2, Sins, and now Elemental I haven’t thought of Stardock as “Indie” in some time - when I hear Indie I think things like Solium Infernum or Eschelon Book 2 or something.
KevinC
1766
I always thought of an indie as someone who is self-owned, self-funded, and self-published. In general that’s going to be very small shops or one-man gigs. Stardock’s definitely bigger than most indies you hear about, but they still fit all the criteria for me. They’re not beholden to shareholders or publishers to determine what type of game to make or when to ship. They call all the shots on their products, and to me that makes them independent.
Razgon
1767
According to Wiki at least its:
Independent video game development is the process of creating video games without the financial support of a video game publisher.
Mordrak
1768
So theoretically, if Bill Gates started a private studio and published it himself, even if it had 300 team members, it’d be indie?
The idea of indie seems kind of nebulous. If all three of those are required, Braid wouldn’t be indie because it was published by Microsoft on the 360.
Mordrak
1769
That’s sensible, but that does kind of leave Stardock as that inbetween case, since itself is a publisher (Demigod) as well as helping float and support its game development with its windows applications.
Mordrak
1770
Yeah, that’s similar for me. That’s why I was kind of scratching my head at the use of the term indie with regard to Stardock. I think the term is more rhetorical than descriptive because a lot of people have a, “I know an indie when I see it.” perception of it.
No, because if he self-published it would mean he had the financial support of a publisher (i.e. himself).
Yeah, it doesn’t really make sense. It’s a term that you can’t really define. Which is why people argue about it.
Jon
KevinC
1772
Basically what it comes down to for me is who is calling the shots in terms of what game is being made, when it is being released, etc. If there’s an outside party that can control how the game is developed (or what is developed, for that matter), then they’re not independent in my mind.
I do get what you’re saying, but yes if Bill Gates self-funded a 300-man development team on his own dime, to make the game he wanted, I would consider them independent.
To me it’s a matter of ownership and control, not size or budget.
Cubit
1773
Yeah, I really wouldn’t call Elemental an “Indie” game. I mean, Stardock develops and publishes video games. They are about as far from “Indie” as you can get.
That’s the correct, technical definition.
But with time, indie meaning has transformed in something a bit more specific. The previous definition, but limited to the typical “small guy”.
Stardock is not in the league of the “big guys”, like EA or Activision or Ubisoft, nor id, Valve or Relic, not even Firaxis, but they aren’t in the league of the small guys: they aren’t 2-6 guys working on a garage anymore.
So a bit in the middle.
Razgon
1775
Well, Indie is really just short form of Independent, which means the company isnt dependant on others for money, as I understand it.
Tyjenks
1776
In the Gates example, I think you could argue that Bill would not really create a “start-up” as his funding is still derived from Microsoft monies. Yeah, the line has become more blurry. Cliffski will be big enough soon to blur his line and sell out to the man (kidding Cliff, don’t yell at me ;) ).
Stardock was built from the ground up so I do consider them “independent” from the big, corporate gaming establishment. If Elemental is the ginormous success that it may become, the line will blur further.
I will hazard a guess and say that Brad probably has some very specific thoughts on this subject. :)
The fact that pre-orders allow them to break even (CONGRATS!!!) is a testament to the fact that Stardock has cemented its place as a name in the gaming biz that should be here a while. Unless Brad starts buying yachts* and blow, which is, I assume, what Strategy First did.
*Yeah, I substituted for hookers since this is a family thread.
Tyjenks
1777
Disagree. I would say EA and Microsoft are quite a bit farther along the spectrum.
Razgon
1778
We really don’t have much to discuss in the thread, do we? :-D
I consider Stardock and “indie” studio. Brad makes whatever he wants to make. He’s not beholden to anyone other than his own personal and financial obligations. The fact that Stardock is bigger and has its own publishing arm doesn’t negate that for me.
What about Valve? Indie or not? They fund their own projects and publish their own games except when it comes to the console versions like L4D, L4D2, and Orange Box. Do they still count?
mtkafka
1780
its not indie unless you can take it to borders or starbucks on your iphone.
