Endless Space 2

[ineffablebob]

Those “so-and-so is about to win” messages are hugely misleading, it seems. I was muddling along in my first game (take-all-the-defaults so it’s Normal difficulty with the Space Empire) when out of the blue a message pops up that one of the AIs is about to win an economic victory.

This was quite the surprise to me since the score showed me way ahead of everyone, but when I checked the Victory screen sure enough I was only 2nd in economy. So I resigned myself to a loss, as there was no way to go conquer them in a reasonable amount of time, and I figured the message meant I wouldn’t have time to do anything else.

Just for the hell of it, though, I figured I’d try to catch up and pushed my empire into a dust-gathering frenzy. To my great surprise, within just a few turns the Victory screen showed me in first place. And around that time I started getting a bunch more of those “about to win” pop-ups: for myself in economy, for several factions on wonders, etc.

I could have just kept generating dust to win, but since I had a ton of influence I used it to make an alliance with half the AIs and thus win a conquest victory. About half the territory was mine.

So if you get a message telling you someone else is about to win, don’t believe it. You’ve got a whole lot of time left. (At least, that’s the case on Normal. Might be different on higher difficulty levels.)

[tomchick]

@robc04

I wish that the player could design multiple system development upgrades per level (at some type of cost). It doesn’t make sense to say when any system develops to level 2 it has to improve food production because that’s the system before it did. It would allow for more specialization and strategic choices. I’m all for making the player make difficult choices, but I don’t think limited the player here improves the game.

Hmm, I’m not sure I agree. If you want to micromanage, the planetary specializations are there to fiddle with to your hearts’ content. I like that the system upgrades force you to make choices about what luxuries to use for what bonuses, and that they furthermore involve some randomness in terms of which of the 24 possible luxuries will occur in your game.

Do you know what’s going on with this screen? It’s pretty cool once you suss it out.

Look how different this game is:

And that’s without taking into account what those luxuries are doing on the market! Luxuries have a cool global effect and if you were able to freely jigger which system uses which luxuries for which upgrade, it would take away a very hard decision and replace it with annoying micromanagement.

@Fifth_Fret

There is also a massive overflow of unneeded luxuries - by the end of my last game I was selling hundreds to the markets every turn.

If you’ve got hundreds of luxuries to sell to the market every turn, you should be well on your way to an economic victory! What’s going on over there?

-Tom

[tomchick]

@DeepT

I just finished my first game, losing to an economic victory after trying for a science victory. I think the science victory is too hard or perhaps the economic victory is too easy.

Based on one game, you think this? Economic, science, and wonder victories are game clocks. If you leave a faction strong, it will run out the clock. It’s entirely situational.

-Tom

[tomchick]

@Miramon

Won my first normal-difficulty game easily, using my custom sophon++ race.

If there’s one thing more Baby Mode than turning off pirates, it’s making a custom race. :) There are some egregiously broken things in there.

-Tom

[Enidigm]

Just FYI for those who don’t know but those dots (usually empty circles, but sometimes full circles and sometimes blinking circles) above systems may mean somethings…

[Coldsteel]

@Enidigm

Just FYI for those who don’t know but those dots (usually empty circles, but sometimes full circles and sometimes blinking circles) above systems may mean somethings…

Yep, each represents a system planet. Empty circle means you can’t colonize the planet. Full circle means you can. Blinking circle means it has an anomaly (or more) to investigate.

[Miramon]

@tomchick

@Miramon

Won my first normal-difficulty game easily, using my custom sophon++ race.

If there’s one thing more Baby Mode than turning off pirates, it’s making a custom race. :) There are some egregiously broken things in there.

-Tom

Not my problem if they screwed up the balance :)

[robc04]

I do like how every luxury resource isn’t available in each game. I like when games force me to adapt my play based on the current circumstances. Games get old quickly if I can just do the same thing every time because I will take the path of least resistance to victory.

I suppose the current system does have some interesting decisions, like should I go with the resources that are plentiful to be, or buy the ones I really want on the market, or maybe invade a system for them. I also suppose that since there are different system level upgrades, you do get to choose a variety of resources.

I don’t know why but I just spent several hours looking through the tech tree and taking notes about what types of things the techs unlock.

[tomchick]

@robc04

I don’t know why but I just spent several hours looking through the tech tree and taking notes about what types of things the techs unlock.

You’re a man after my own heart, @robc04! I did the exact same thing. I do this with a lot of strategy games and often, this is where they start to fall apart. But for me, going over stuff, taking notes, poring over the resources and techs, this is where Endless Space 2 started to really come together.

-Tom

[Fifth_Fret]

@tomchick

If you’ve got hundreds of luxuries to sell to the market every turn, you should be well on your way to an economic victory! What’s going on over there?

I was, and I did! But (from my crude testing) the dust from selling luxuries didn’t seem to contribute. Partly it also seems trade routes provide a ton of luxuries.

I guess I just feel like there is a wasted option here - I should feel something when I find a planet with new luxuries, but unless it’s one of the chosen few I picked for that game, it is very ‘meh’.

[Fifth_Fret]

@tomchick

Actually, I’d argue to flotilla positions might be more (?) important than the effects. Once you’re building ships, you’ll have some that you definitely want at long or short range. Since each flotilla’s range is determined in part by the other guy’s card, a card with a short range on the left flank is different than a card with short range on the right flank.

Yes, agreed, particularly as unengaged flotillas can contribute at range.

There are some cool effects though. Have you seen ‘Diplomatic Immunity’?

[DeepT]

@tomchick

You do know there’s a tutorial mode in this game, right? One that answers many of these questions for you as you play? I mean, you’re lobbing softballs here, so ask away, but if you’re really interested in learning how to play, there are more convenient ways than waiting for someone to reply to a Qt3 post.

Yes and the tutorial is broken for me. Basically I got to a point where a scout was ambushed by attackers. The tutorial said to attack, but I could flee if I wanted to. So my scout vs 3 pirates was going to be a loss so I fled. The tutorial got stuck at that point and never moved on, forever asking me to go ahead and attack. Eventually, I got another fleet of proper war ships and killed the pirates, but the tutorial never moved on.

So yes, tom, I do try other means and to figure stuff out myself before coming to QT3 to ask basic questions. Please stop beating me up.

[DeepT]

@tomchick

If you’ve got hundreds of luxuries to sell to the market every turn, you should be well on your way to an economic victory! What’s going on over there?

Selling stuff on the market places does NOT move you to an economic victory. I think it should, but it most certainly does not. I had an economic victory goal of 640k dust. I sold all my stuff and got to 780k dust and the game’s progress on my economic victory didn’t change at all. I am pretty sure its only from dust per turn as an income.

Anyway, if you defeat an empire, is there a message about it or some kind of indication? I started my riftborn play-through and sharing my star cluster was those religious idiots. They started making noise about donations and turning hostile, so I built a fleet of ships and crushed their two arks. I can’t find any more arks unless one is way off in bfe, but they still seem to be in play in the game.

[ineffablebob]

@DeepT

Anyway, if you defeat an empire, is there a message about it or some kind of indication? I started my riftborn play-through and sharing my star cluster was those religious idiots. They started making noise about donations and turning hostile, so I built a fleet of ships and crushed their two arks. I can’t find any more arks unless one is way off in bfe, but they still seem to be in play in the game.

You’ll get a notification if someone is completely eliminated, but it may take a while. I took out all the systems of an AI and destroyed every ship I could find, but they still hung around for several more turns. Then suddenly the game told me they were eliminated. I’m guessing they had one fleet left someplace that I couldn’t see, and it finally got killed by pirates or something.

[tomchick]

@DeepT

So yes, tom, I do try other means and to figure stuff out myself before coming to QT3 to ask basic questions. Please stop beating me up.

Sorry about that, DeepT. I don’t mean to dissuade you. I’m happy to answer questions and discuss the game. I’m mainly giving you guff because I have a mental imagine of you rubbing your hands together as soon as the download is done, untoggling the checkbox for the tutorial, and hitting quickstart, only to grind to a halt when you have to alt-tab over to the forum to post a question. :) And to be fair to you, Endless Space 2 doesn’t do nearly enough to help a fella up the learning curve.

@Fifth_Fret

I was, and I did! But (from my crude testing) the dust from selling luxuries didn’t seem to contribute. Partly it also seems trade routes provide a ton of luxuries.

@DeepT

Selling stuff on the market places does NOT move you to an economic victory. I think it should, but it most certainly does not.

Oh, man, you guys are totally right! I just tested this because I thought that’s crazytalk, but you’re 100% right. I’ve been getting tons of money from luxuries thinking it was moving me closer to economic victories.

Still, it’s a great source of cash. The AI isn’t shy about doing it! Just watch the Exchange Information panel. Dumping a bunch of luxuries (or any strategic resources) on the market is, I think, as fundamental a part of the economy as buying out production.

-Tom

[Fifth_Fret]

@tomchick

Still, it’s a great source of cash. The AI isn’t shy about doing it! Just watch the Exchange Information panel. Dumping a bunch of luxuries (or any strategic resources) on the market is, I think, as fundamental a part of the economy as buying out production.

Then they shouldn’t be luxuries, they should just be dust income! :grumpy:

If I sound critical of small things like this, it’s because I really enjoy so much of game and its design, and it seems a great shame things like this were overlooked.

[tomchick]

@Fifth_Fret

Then they shouldn’t be luxuries, they should just be dust income! :grumpy:

But they’re not just dust income, because they’re dependent on the market. On how much is in the galaxy, on who’s buying and selling, on where the sources are located. Check out this screen:

Guess which planet I really want to take away from the Sophons. The one planet that’s producing hydromiel.

Also, regarding the science victory being bugged, seems like we’re all idiots. Check out this thread. And I just confirmed it by starting a new game and noting that the science victory only requires four techs. We were all apparently making assumptions because we were in alliances. The representation of it is really screwy and this is another example of how the game is doing itself a disservice by not having a fucking manual or Spaceopedia or whatever. But apparently science victories are working just fine.

-Tom

[Fifth_Fret]

@tomchick

But they’re not just dust income, because they’re dependent on the market. On how much is in the galaxy, on who’s buying and selling, on where the sources are located. Check out this screen:

Okay maybe there’s an element of that - but you don’t have much control over the market. I’ll explore it a bit more, but right now I find this pointless busywork that doesn’t make much sense (“No, America, you’ve got coffee and potatoes. Importing diamonds and maple syrup would be just too much for your poor little minds!”)

@tomchick

Also, regarding the science victory being bugged, seems like we’re all idiots. Check out this thread. And I just confirmed it by starting a new game and noting that the science victory only requires four techs. We were all apparently making assumptions because we were in alliances. The representation of it is really screwy and this is another example of how the game is doing itself a disservice by not having a fucking manual or Spaceopedia or whatever. But apparently science victories are working just fine.

I will check when I get home - maybe I was in an alliance? Nice find on this one; what a strange implementation.

[Spock]

The more I play, the more I’m enjoying this game. I think about it even when I’m not playing. In many areas, it has a “less is more” design philosophy that appeals to me.

One example is ship design. I usually dislike ship design in games like this, but I really enjoy it here because it doesn’t overwhelm me with detail but also gives me interesting decisions. I was so happy when I opened up my first design and saw I just had to figure out what to put in five slots, some of which could accept only certain fittings. I didn’t have to worry about energy costs, or mass, or part size. I like making five interesting decisions rather than 20 confusing (or obvious) ones.

Plus, the game gave me feedback on my design pretty quickly, because I have plenty of pirates to practice on. Watching my battles from the overhead view (which I find much more informative than the default cinematic view), I saw the strengths and weaknesses of my decisions in battles versus pirates, and I created a new design to complement my old one, giving me some combined-arms punch. That made me enjoy the ship-design process, and now I look forward to the slightly more complex decisions that greet me every time I research a new tech.

Same with battle cards. The game doesn’t overwhelm us with too many battle cards at game start, when we pick from 3 cards. Again, using pirates as my testing ground, I experimented with different battle cards, and a couple disasters convinced me of the importance of thinking – and looking at the opponent’s loadout and my own – before choosing a card. And once again, the game gradually increases the complexity, adding more cards as I research stuff (or, interesting, when I “discovered” a battle tech by exploring an anomaly).

Same with galaxy size. Don’t get me wrong, sometimes I want to dive into 1000 systems in Distant Worlds. But ES2’s smaller scope made me think early on about which direction to expand, because I had humans 3 or 4 systems away, and probes found Cravens even closer (albeit not connected by starlanes).

Ditto with factions. Better to have 8 really well-defined factions than 25 vaguely-different ones. Sure, the game could do more to increase the immersion: faction-specific art for each improvement, for example. Even so, I really enjoy the differences among the factions.

And I love the politics for similar reasons: the basic design is simple, and my decisions have a tangible effect on outcomes. I understand why my actions help certain factions (the UI tells me so!), and I only have myself to blame for my recent electoral loss to the Militarists. Yes, the game does not give us perfect info on elections, but I think that’s a plus: it means I’m not sure whether injecting 300 dust into a campaign will make a difference – just as in the real world spending money doesn’t guarantee an electoral win, and sometimes a less-qualified candidate surprises the pollsters and wins.

So far my only real complaint is diplomacy, but I’m rarely happy with diplomacy in games like these. Crusader Kings 2 is the only game that’s captured my diplomatic imagination. ES2’s hero system is a step in the right direction: give us more stuff like this!

Bah, I typed way too much. Less typing, more playing! Back to it.

[Coldsteel]

Yeah, I’m enjoying it more and more as well. I agree on the diplomacy system. I’ve just ignored that so far like I do in almost all 4x games.

I do also wonder why they use the term “quests” in a sci-fi game. It made sense for Endless Legends because of the fantasy trappings but in a space game I keep thinking they should have used “missions” instead.