the reality is that you’re never going to be friends with countries like Iran (or even really with Saudi Arabia), while their current leadership is in place.
Why not? We’re “friends” with central Asian dictators that boil their opponents alive. Personally, I think from a depressing realpolitik angle a reapproachment with Iran would be the single smartest move we could make in the region.
Iran is a democracy. Is it a perfect democracy? Of course not, far from it, as Mir Hussain Mousavi would attest. It is however more democratic than, say, oh, I don’t know, Saudi Arabia. Or the West Bank, for that matter.
US ships refuel in China as well. Are you going to assert that US forces are based in China now? And Dimona isn’t a US base, for crying out loud, it’s where Israel keeps its nuclear stockpile.
I’d rate Egypt barely above Iran in terms of democracies, but Egypt is one of our bestest buddies in the world, and the #2 recipient of our military aid behind Israel.
There isn’t a bright line on “democratic” or not. They’re more democratic than China, far more democratic than Turkmenistan, and less democratic than Turkey.
The US has a presence in the region. Even if we ignore Iraq for a moment the US has bases in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Bahrain, and Kuwait.
So, again, what does Israel bring to it’s partnership with the US that you don’t already get elsewhere? Backing Israel was the right thing to do in the cold war because of the nature of that conflict. Today I can’t see a viable strategic reason that could possibly outweigh the badwill you get from being seen as the backers of Israeli oppression of Arabs.
Disliking a government doesn’t mean you get to pretend things don’t exist. And, if stealing an election means democracy no longer exists, then I suppose we should send out the tanks to, um, Chicago and Florida immediately!
As I already pointed out and you completely ignored, the people of Teheran have far more of a democracy than the people of East Jerusalem. But that’s fine - as you’ve adequately demonstrated by your complete ignorance of the region, in your mind Muslims simply don’t count.
An under-construction radar antenna doth not a US military base make. As has been pointed out, there are actual US military bases scattered throughout the region.
Ignoring everything else, do you believe that if the US just turned its back on Israel, that any of the Islamic countries in the region would then look favorably upon the US?
Because they wouldn’t. The US, totally aside from Israel, is the great Satan. Those people who hate you are going to hate you regardless of what you do. You can’t win them over. In all likelihood, they’d just see your actions as a sign of weakness, and hate you more.
Maybe I’m wacky here, but I actually believe in holding countries to standards of basic civil and human rights regardless of geopolitical considerations or their neighbors. Standards which Israel regularly flunks. Whatever Ayatollah Khameini or Prince Bandar al-Saud thinks about it doesn’t concern me in the slightest. It may concern you since apparently you’re all concerned about geopolitics and whatnot, since that’s your stated (and flawed) reason for blindly supporting Israel right or wrong, but it doesn’t me.
Oh for fucks sake. There are millions of average arab citizens who are not islamists or radical but they all see Israelis shooting Palestinians on tv. Palestinian kids that look like their kids, people who have the same names as their neighbours, and speak the same language as them, and they get very upset about it. And when the US stands beside Israel that’s a big argument in favor of them giving their silent support for people who are radical and islamist.
Oh man, they had elections!
What part of the “having pretend elections doesn’t make you a democratic government” didn’t you understand?
Iran is controlled by its theocracy. Its elections are nothing more than for show.
And this isn’t about “muslims not counting”. Turkey is a muslim country, and they are a democracy. But Iran isn’t. Iran is a theocracy.
Pretty sure it does actually count, despite the fact that you didn’t know about it.
Certainly Israel isn’t the only US presence in the region, but it’s probably the most reliable. There’s little, if any, risk that Israel would deny the US the ability to operate from within, or over, their territory.
On top of all that, there are also major industrial players in Israel, like Intel.
I don’t think the choice is between blindly supporting Israel and cutting off all ties to snuggle up with some of its more unsavory neighbors. That’s a false dichotomy created by people that benefit from the fear and violence that the extreme positions create. As someone who is not presumably an Orthodox Jew extremist, Crusader American evangelist, or a craven war profiteer, you’re foolish to buy into it for nothing other than a vague ideological resonance. At least get your cut.
There’s plenty of room in the international community both for a US that does view its foreign policy as a set of binary decisions and a more moderate Israel, as well as having the bonus effect of depriving local despots of a convenient monster to point to. It’s not going to make us friends, and certainly not in the short run, but a decent, fair foreign policy that ultimately makes us safer and wealthier on average (as opposed to in concentrated blobs of wealth directed at the top tiers of society) is a long term game.
You’re pulling this out of your ass. Israel will go against US interests given sufficient reason, and with far less fear of repercussions than, say, any of the gulf states. If you think Kuwait will ever be a less reliable partner than Israel you’re delusional.
Those people see Israelis shooting Palestinians on TV…and they really care about those Palestinians. At the same time, they have presumably seen all of the terrorist actions taken against Israel, such as launching rockets into their civilian populations, or blowing up nightclubs and buses, etc. But that stuff is apparently ok.
Ultimately, I tend to get the impression that many of the nations in the region just like having Israel as a scapegoat that they can use to distract their populations from their own state.
Regardless of that though, I think that having a stable Palestinian state would be tremendously beneficial for everyone involved. But the reality is that they’re not going to push Israel into the sea. That plan has failed for decades now, and if they want to get their own country then they need to accept that Israel is going to be there next to them.
The idea that having the US just turn its back on Israel will somehow improve things is ridiculous. None of those people who hate the US are going to suddenly say, “Oh, those guys are cool now!”
I can agree with this. No support should be given to anyone blindly.
I’m mainly disagreeing with the notion apparently held by some that Israel is nothing but dead weight, and that we should just cut them off because they offer us nothing.
They care as much about dead Israelis as your average American cares about dead Iraqis. Not very much. Basic tribalism, it isn’t pretty but you need to account for it. And if asked directly they would most likely tell you that the terrorists are fighters trying to free a people who are cruelly oppressed by Israeli occupation,and this great injustice merits the use of all means necessary. For every suicide bomber on a bus they can counter with half a dozen Israeli bombings of civilian areas.
Ultimately, I tend to get the impression that many of the nations in the region just like having Israel as a scapegoat that they can use to distract their populations from their own state.
Yes, Israel makes a great scapegoat. Which is part of the reason why supporting Israel is bad policy for the US.
Regardless of that though, I think that having a stable Palestinian state would be tremendously beneficial for everyone involved. But the reality is that they’re not going to push Israel into the sea. That plan has failed for decades now, and if they want to get their own country then they need to accept that Israel is going to be there next to them.
There’s the other side of that coin to account for. A large part of the Israeli electorate thinks that outright annexing the best areas of the territories and forcibly expelling any non-jews is a good idea. That does not lead to a stable palestinian state. Quite the contrary.
The idea that having the US just turn its back on Israel will somehow improve things is ridiculous. None of those people who hate the US are going to suddenly say, “Oh, those guys are cool now!”
No, people who hate what Israel is doing to the Palestinians won’t think the US is complicit. Hearts and minds, remember?
Do you actually know anything at all about Iran’s political system, or are you just parroting neocon twaddle again?
Here, learn a bit:
I certainly wouldn’t want to live under such a system, but it’s more democratic than many of our allies. INCLUDING ISRAEL’S OCCUPATION. Which you continue to blithely ignore.
Yes, that is exactly what “maybe we shouldn’t blindly offer Israel billions of dollars a year in military aid while they elect right wing regimes that use that military aid to suppress an occupied population, without expecting some sort of accountability” means.
Do you actually know anything at all about Iran’s political system, or are you just parroting neocon twaddle again?
Apparently I know more than you do, if you consider it to be a representation of a free democratic government.
Your own links point this out. For instance:
The President of Iran is the highest official elected by direct popular vote, but does not control foreign policy or the armed forces. Candidates have to be vetted by the Guardian Council, a twelve member body consisting of six clerics (selected by Iran’s Supreme Leader) and six lawyers (proposed by the head of Iran’s judicial system and voted in by the Parliament).
The democratically elected government in Iran holds no power. Iran is ruled by its theocratic council, which is not elected at all. They also decide who is even allowed to run for the “democratically elected” positions.
It takes more than a sham vote to make a country democratic.
Also, that little graph you linked to most recently is simply wrong. The electorate has absolutely no say in the appointment of things like the Guardian Council. The council is appointed by the Supreme Leader.
More powerful than the President of Iran, the Leader appoints the heads of many powerful posts - the commanders of the armed forces, the director of the national radio and television network, the heads of the major religious foundations, the prayer leaders in city mosques, and the members of national security councils dealing with defence and foreign affairs. He also appoints the chief judge, the chief prosecutor, special tribunals and, with the help of the chief judge, the 12 jurists of the Guardian Council – the powerful body that decides both what bills may become law and who may run for president or parliament.[4]