Even I have to say "This is stupid" (WOW)

I’m forced to conclude yet again that Blizzard’s RTS success led to an internal overestimation of their ability to get PvP right (let alone “redefine it” as they seem to have attempted, given how far out of place their FPS-centric solutions seem).

How can they screw up honor to the point that people get credit for sitting on their ass (leading to this nerf that seems to punish the wrong people), when Mythic has been working on the problem for so long and handles it so much better?

Ditto “realm” warfare. God I hope they’re planning to throw out these useless battlegrounds at some point and create true realm warfare. If I wanted CTF or domination I’d play a god damned fucking™ FPS.

Alterac Valley was originally supposed to be a non-instanced zone that would always be available. Warsong Gulch and other 10 man battlegrounds were supposed to be the instanced PVP combat that proceeded in matches.

I think that somebody higher up than Kalgan/Evocare is meddling with the PVP mechanics, as Kalgan has come out on record stating that he was against Dishonour Kills for civilians on PVP servers, but was overruled from above.

Kalgan was responsible for the faction system in UO, which, although it had its problems, was a world based PVP system.

So don’t play them. Many of us love the battlegrounds. I personally think they’re quite elegant and interesting. That’s basically all I find fun about having 60’s.

Alterac Valley was originally supposed to be a non-instanced zone that would always be available.

They did go on to give reasons why they decided to instance them. They would lose control over the number of players in the battle ground and which ever faction on the server had the greatest population would have the advantage almost perpetually.

PUGS are just going to /afk faster when they come across a good team.

I think, like the Koontz says, a solution would be skill-based match ups.

Perhaps when you enter the queue, you can set whether you prefer to play on the PUG level, or the Organized Team level. You would get twice the honor playing on the Organized Team level, which would be incentive for good teams not to sandbag.

It’s just idea. Feel free to tear it to shreds. I’m going into this topic with the mindset of someone who ranked 13th overall PVP player on a server before patch 1.7, and I always felt sorry for the PUG teams that had the misfortune of being matched against us.

Unless you offer incentives for populating imbalanced factions and vary the rewards for the over/under-populated realm. It’s all been done before. All of these problems have been solved someplace else.

In practice I don’t think this will be a big deal but I think an eight minute cutoff would have been better.

I’ve seen AB’s won in six minutes or less if one side doesn’t try. If one side tries just a little though it can easily extend the game a few more minutes.

This won’t affect AV at all, of course.

I’m not sure about Warsong. I don’t like it and have only played it a dozen or so games. I think if you put up any resistence you can make the game last 10 minutes, but I’ve seen good teams win fast in WSG. [/list]


I will endeavor to clear up the controversy and confusion surrounding the “ten-minute rule.”

The idea that players would have to remain in battlegrounds for ten minutes before they’d receive a Mark of Honor for losing was one the developers were seriously considering as an effort to reduce the incentive players had to lose a battle quickly. The concept was simple: it would give players incentive to try and stay in, rather than giving up and allowing a quick loss without any effort expended. However, during further discussions, it was decided that adding a mild punishment to those who /afk out of battlegrounds, in the form of a requeue timer (Deserter debuff), would be preferable to the old “ten-minute rule” idea. In addition, since the problem was primarily found in Arathi Basin matches held during the Arathi Basin “holiday,” the developers chose to improve the way in which bonus honor was awarded during Arathi Basin holidays rather than institute the ten-minute rule.

The ten-minute rule had been implemented as part of 1.9, and was set to be removed from 1.9 as the Deserter debuff was put in place. Unfortunately, because 1.8.4 was developed simultaneously with 1.9, the ten-minute rule had actually made its way into 1.8.4 too (which was tested and signed off upon some time ago, around the time this change was being implemented). As such, the ten-minute rule mistakenly went live.

This was not intended by our development team, and we sincerely apologize for the inconvenience. The ten-minute rule does not exist on the patch 1.9 test versions that have been on the test realms for some time now (with the exception of Warsong Gulch, which is being fixed), reflecting the fact that the Deserter debuff was intended as a replacement rather than an addition to this mechanic. We intend to fix this bug in a server-side hotfix soon.

Thank you for your patience throughout this. We’re keeping a close eye on PvP, battlegrounds, and the Honor System, and will continue to make changes as warranted.

So, if this was retarded, now goes through the rooftop.

They started with a rule trying a to encourage a fight (see the post that Mark Asher quoted), and they finished with another that encourages TO SURRENDER.

Magnificent, really.

Wait. So in a patch that does like six things, one of those things is a tremendous bug? Between this and AOE3’s accidental removal of auto attack, I’m really scratching my head. Don’t people test these patches?

And it doesn’t even work.

People are reporting BGs lasting more than 10 mins and delivering no mark of honor.

The first quote from Caydiem is dated: 12/6/2005 8:54:52 PM WEST The second quote: 12/7/2005 1:59:49 AM WEST

How can both of these be true? If she went to Kalgan today and said “The players want to know why we implemented a ten minute rule” shouldn’t he have looked at her and said “You mean the ten minute rule we scrapped and never made implemented?”

Funny stuff. FWIW Alliance on Doomhammer rarely lasts more than 4-5 minutes in AB and WSG. The Horde on our server basically heads straight for the graveyards and camps them.

I can’t see any more AB and WSG action occuring after these patch changes are released.

When Hrose makes his MMO, there will be no bugs.


Or, horde players may be encouraged to fight.

The whole thrust behind giving losers a lesser reward is that players dont like losing and if they lose a lot they will quit. Blizzard is trying to make it something other than a zero sum game.

You know, it’s curious. I don’t quite know why I loath them so much. I mean there’s the obvious lack of an epic fight to complement an epic struggle (getting to 60), making the BGs seem like “great, you’re 60 – now you can play the little mini games we put in for you”. Maybe it’s the kneejerk reaction to chocolate in my peanut butter. I had a similar loathing for the MMO leveling concept creeping into WC3 – every fiber of my gaming psyche just screamed this does not belong here. Blizzard thinks mixing concepts from separate genres is fun. I just haven’t been able to stand it. I play an FPS when I want a short crazy fight, I play an RTS when I want to not be leveling and still have fun being strategic, and I play an MMORPG when I want something truly epic.


If Mythic (or someone like them) can remake a game in the spirit of DAoC with a WoW-calibre engine and world, I am so there. Sadly, after being spoiled by WoW (or spoiled by a $50M budget), leveling up in competing MMOs feels like death by a thousand little annoying cuts.

Alterac Valley does feel pretty epic in scope to me, although obviously its outcome doesn’t effect the larger world. (Having truly meaningful RvR battles seems to me to have significant design consequences although I never played DAOC so didn’t see how they handled it.)

That’s what is really scary that their QA approved a broken patch to begin with. What kind of testing scenarios are they doing over there?


Yeah, it’s not like if you enter the BG with a CD in your CD-ROM drive it deletes your character or something. Sheesh.

It seems pretty clearly a mistake born out of developing a mini-patch simultaneously with a major patch, and a miscommunication between the two groups.

On the scale of fuckups, this ranks pretty damn far behind product recalls, and yet those happen ALL THE TIME.

From my side of the fence it’s pretty easy to see how it happened -

  1. Solution for BG rollovers implemented on test server
  2. Decision made to use different solution
  3. Test server rolled to live
  4. Different solution implemented on test server

The mistake was in not doing 4 before 3. Happens frequently; the code bases involved are complex enough that you don’t want to break the patching process to “just fix this one thing real quick”.

Right, but the problem’s not just that the “wrong” solution to the problem went live. The “wrong” solution went live, and turned out not to work at all like it was supposed to. I can see either one of these problems happening, but I have trouble coming up with a reasonable scenario where both happen.

The whole thing, combined with some test server changes to the upcoming 1.9 patch, have made me question Blizzard’s decision-making process.