Evil Hat posts about Lovecraft. Angers trolls.

He is wrong.

And he absolutely questioned whether calling Lovecraft extreme was too much, a position someone who knows anything about Lovecraft would not take if they know about his material or are just unwilling to actually review it for what it is.

The man was not subtle.

So the benefit of the doubt is already expired? Wisdom of 1, not enough for Resurrection? You lose, you get nothing. Good day sir! Zero sum: life vs the heat death of Universe?

No chance for redemption.

As a brief digression, I feel the Internets could use more chance at forgiveness.

I also may or may not be drunk right now.

You are right, of course, I was not aware of the letters. And these definitely show he was more extreme than I thought he was based on reading some of his books (he really held back there, good for him!).

And I’m pretty sure my reply to that should have made all of that clear, actually.

I am quite used to the usual overzealous suspects here trying to put words in my mouth to make me look as wrong as possible for disagreeing with them on other matters. It only fits they get hung up on stuff even if I actually agree with them and interpret everything I say in the worst possible way.
Business as usual, really, no need to defend me. This is the internet, I am quite sturdy and words cannot harm me ;)

We have a topic just for that. This is not it.

Or maybe not jump into a topic and talk about shit you don’t have a clue about. That is also an option.

Thanks thread judge, jury, and executioner?

It’s not even hard to find this information. It would’ve taken anyone zero effort to just stop and look. And even more than that, some pin it all on his letters which probably means they still claim his works aren’t racist. It’s just lazy man as well as wrong.

Having read two of his books, I was pretty sure I had a clue about the racism in them.
Well, I still do, as the racism in them remains the same, even if Lovecraft himself turned out to be way more extreme than his work let on.
Did you actually read any of his books or just his letters?

And instead of going to look, I asked in this forum for an answer. And received it, too.
I would say my laziness turned out pretty effective, didn’t it?

I’d also bet you do not post a sentence like that when someone who isn’t a person you for some reason have it out for asks a question they also could have answered by applying their Google Fu.
If all of us knew all the facts at any given time, we could basically stop 90% of every discussion because everything was already known.
Sometimes, asking for more input and stating your opinion based on what facts you currently have is kind of… normal, you know?

There is clearly racism in his works. But I would argue that doesn’t make his entire work racist. You could just go in there, scoop those easily identifyable parts out like cookie dough in ice cream and voilá! You have your racist-free cosmic horror. And it would still be Lovecraft.
I’d bet someone did that already, actually. Would make sense.

Nowadays, those parts really stick out like a sore thumb. You read your environment descriptions, dialogue, horror, get in the mood and then BAM! random racist remark. That’s how it was for me, anyway.

I don’t want to sound too harsh Nesrie. It’s a topic that matters to you and a whole lot of people.

That said, TheSheep came in a thread and asked questions. He got answers and was shown info he didn’t know. He learned something and changed his position. That’s kind of the thing we do. We don’t berate people for not knowing it all in advance.

If you require everyone who steps in a thread to know about it and pre agree on all the basics as you see them, then maybe you are more interested in giving ex cathedra lessons than participating in discussion topics.

But yes, I can see how it’s frustrating when old defenses are trotted back out. Just give people a chance if they are willing to listen.

I should also mention that you have made me things from a different perspective (as a European middle aged white male) on topics you have participated in. So thank you for that.

I don’t have it out for you. I have no idea what you’re talking about. I have a problem with this particular author coming up year after year after year with the same mantra being spoken by people who are either fans or just oblivious. And yes, I am definitely familiar enough with his works to know that this:

Is not true. Those monsters, the cultists, the freakish people down at the docks… If you see someone you might describe as Other, you see vile, it is very likely Lovecraft is equating them to minorities and foreigners, not White Europeans. Not only did he see them as less than human, he wrote them as not humans. It’s not subtle, and you cannot simply ignore it. If people are going to draw from this material for future work they have to take it seriously and stop defending the man, so they can leave that kind of vileness behind when they create their works. This only works if they do this, and fortunately Evil Hat knows to do this because they did work.

This is not a new topic for gaming. It’s not new for fantasy or sci-fi or books or awards or board games or video games or movies or television. Lovecraft is a topic that comes up time and time again. We pretty much had the exact same discussion we just had here before… in another Lovecraft topic actually linked above. It’s not even new here.

It’s not being treated as new because it’s not new. And it’s more than frustrating to see the same ole hey he was only so so bad “for his time” or hey I’m a fan so he couldn’t possibly be that bad, or but oh those were just the letters not the stuff I like.

This man was thought to have night terrors, not nightmares but terrors. He preferred to go out at night. He supported the KKK. He absolutely thought anyone he considered an Other as subhuman not worthy of voting or really life. He hated sex. He has a toxic legacy, and you know what, the world of fantasy and sci-fi doesn’t just have a legacy of racism and exclusion through Lovecraft, it is notorious for it’s exclusions, for the wall that doesn’t allow anyone else in.

I will never ever know what it is like to go through life blissfully not knowing how horrific the origins are for some of my most favorite hobbies. I will never know what inclusion really looks because it will never happen in my lifetime We can’t get past these discussions of what already is, of what we already know, so forget trying to include the new, the different, and maybe not Euro centric of today. This guy has thousands, thousands of letters, several written works that are obviously racist and we still can’t stop having this discussion. Hell just think how this would be if we didn’t have that and suddenly there are claims of academia just making it up.

And I think it is a very small ask that we acknowledge and not accept the excuses that keep showing up with every discussion about one of the most notorious racists who also had a profound effect on fantasy and horror fiction. I am not asking everyone to know everything or really anything about Lovecraft just because or even to post here… but at the very least, very least, IF someone is going to show up in the 3rd, 5th, 50th discussion about him, they should at least take a minute and actually know something about the person they’re defending. And for this guy, for Lovecraft, getting that knowledge is easily available to everyone with minimal effort.

One comment Nesrie did made me remember the troubling life some great classic developers had because they where trans

Sorry if this is out of the blue
I will take any opportunity to talk about the heroes of the industry

Thanks for the in depth and thoughtful reply, Nesrie. I know where you are coming from. I’m also aware of the context and previous discussions.

I simply don’t want to prejudge someone who didn’t happen to take part in those but is willing to listen. But I certainly understand how having to restate the obvious for the nth time can be frustrating or discouraging considering the kind of character we are describing.

Lovecraft excluded a lot people with his work. And his awards, his worship like following in the industry wasn’t challenged for some time. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to acknowledge there are many groups shut out, still shut-out of this circles of creativity.

Is it really a willingness to listen?

Because this is not listening. This is trying to discredit even after I spoken about this topic with some level competence more than once. Am I scholar on him, no, but is there a specific reason why someone should question if I’ve read his works the 2nd, heck maybe 3rd or 4th time I’ve talked about him, his letters and his works right here on this site. This doesn’t look like listening to me.

And what’s this:

Good for him. Good for him his level of racism is what… abhorrent in his works and not holy-shit like his letters. Is that bar now?

How exactly do you think people should react to pointing out the facts of just how really racist Lovecraft is and then get called upon to prove they read his works even after I have already demonstrated I know a hell of a lot more than person does. My cred not good enough now?

And then, praise, praise for that kind of work. Not his world that people love, or his ideas or his ability to bring horror to life but actually praising that the terrible racism in his works isn’t as shocking, to some, as his letters. Is that listening too?


I guess I should answer the question. I have read his works, short, long and letters, but not all of them. There is only so much I can stomach at any given time, but I am also fascinated by his creativity and horrified by the man himself who doesn’t sound like he was ever happy in life really. It’s not a simplistic thing to read the works of a man you know would rather have you shot dead than sell you a book. The simplicity some loved as a child with his works, is not afforded to everyone, not afforded to a lot of people. And yes, children learn early… children don’t get to be children as long as others for some groups.

That is mostly absurd.
Most monsters are just that: monsters. Not even human. Not known. The entire point of the horror is the fear of the unknown. Automatically equating fear of the unknown to real world racism doesn’t make sense. If it did, everyone who likes the universe and its many products from novels to games would be racist.

Most cultist are “White Europeans” to begin with - since most characters in his works are white to begin with. Just like Tolkien’s works and many others. Describing a setting in which most people are white isn’t racist. It is just a setting in which most people are white.

Freakish people down at the docks? I never read that as anything else than people living in very poor conditions, uneducated, dirty, wounded, weird (to the protagonist, anyway).

You might as well play WoW, point at a Dark Elf and say “He’s dark! They are mocking people of color! Racists!”.

The author might have done all these mental gymnastics and in his mind everything was just a metaphor for those “blacks”, but that doesn’t mean I or anyone else has to do the same.

Yes, you will never know that, because you yourself are one of the causes of this “unwillingness to listen”.
With your relentless attacks, your holier-than-though attitude, your zealotry, constant lecturing and unwillingness to step over your own shadow and admit you might have judged a person wrong, you will alway push more people away from your cause than pulling them towards it. You are even pushing away people who actually agree with most of the things you said (well, before this particular rant, anyway).
Once you push people away in that manner, they are more than likely to just adopt the opposite stance, just to spite you, whereas they might have been open to change their mind beforehand.

I mean, just look at this:

I asked you a simple and IMO justified question because you really come off as someone who’d rather saw their leg off than read the work of a racist, and you immediately jump to feeling attacked and move into full counter-attack.
And this is what you do every single time when discussing something with people where they might not 100% agree with you. At least every time that I saw.

To me, you are an extremist of the highest order and the true tragedy lies in how you do not even seem to realize how harmful you are to the cause you think you are advocating. Because I think you are really trying to do some good.
It is really lucky that you are here on this board, with incredibly patient, educated (and mostly pretty left-leaning) people who are already mostly in agreement with you.
One can only imagine the havok you’d wreak when let loose on more centrist or even right-leaning places. You’d be recruiting wildly - for whoever you deem your enemy.

Yeah sure looks like a listener to me.

Heck, I think I’ve seen this before, what was it again, something about if you aren’t really nice to certain groups of people they pop out as Nazis on the other-side.

You went there really fast, but yeah the personal attack was a nice touch. I’ll be sure to let everyone know the racists wouldn’t exist if there just wasn’t people pointing out racism all the time.

You’re the one that came into this ignorant, not even knowing about the letters, not me.

You took this well beyond the scope of this topic, so yeah, that’s it.

Overly dramatic, but yes, because that is exactly what happens for those who have not entirely made up their mind yet.
They will take any input they get and make their decision based on that. People are undecided only until they make a decision.
And when that input is as absurdly hostile as yours… do you really think anyone undecided will read your barrages directed at them and think “Oh, well, that’s actually correct. Convinced me.” and not “What an insufferable person. I want nothing in common with them.”?

Not even remotely what I said, but that’s just what you do. Putting words in people’s mouth.

Exactly. And you went on a killing spree about it instead of just doing the sensible thing and pointing me to the letter(s) like someone else did. Which easily convinced me.
Guess what works better.

It doesn’t seem like I am the one that showed up with a beef from the past. Perhaps the next time you accuse someone of that, maybe look inward.

Trust me, you changed my mind on this one.
I don’t think you have it out for anyone in particular any longer. You are just generally like that.

I don’t know what your problem is, but it’s inappropriate.

I am not a weak person. I am not going cow to your insults, your threats, your ridiculous claims of someone not all predisposed into vile views turning into such views due to nothing but a verbal spar, push back or anything else you think is just TOO MUCH. Women, minorities, we’ve been told we’re TOO MUCH for most our lives, ever since we demanded, not were given, but demanded a voice at the table. You see that article up there, there is a writer shouting at an editor, not asking nicely, not meek and bowing down, shouting.

I am participant of this community. I belong here just as much as you do. I am not a cause, and I am not for you to judge. And I am participant in a topic I know more about than you do. This seems to offend you; I’m sure you’ll get over it.

If you’ve got a problem with me in another topic, bring it up in that topic. Leave your shit at the door.

There’s a reason I have certain, um, bucolic posters on ignore.

I never doubted that Lovecraft was racist, just that he was extremely so. Well, that doubt was erased with the letters.
And I simply disagree that his works are entirely racist, I say instead they contain racism but are not defined by it. Seems to me Evil Hat, too, would agree with that.

And about all the rest: I’ll just stop engaging in this with you as it is obviously going nowhere. Just pointing out that I did NOT make any threats. Like… wtf.