F-Zero GX: Antipathy!

Games
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I’ve played all three. Bought the import Ikaruga for Dreamcast when it first launched. Those are three games near the top of my list from this generation because of their no holds barred difficulty. You feel like you really did something when you finish a level or pull off a fancy move. It’s great stuff.

Part of the reason I think a lot of folks get bored with games so fast these days and are always looking for the next big thing is because the games don’t challenge them. They’re either rolling through stuff that’s too easy and getting bored with it or they keep playing the easy game until they hit some sort of actual challenge and then quitting without finishing. Many developers interpret that to mean games should be easier. I disagree. They should be easier to learn but hard to master. F-Zero GX is the definition of this philosophy of game design. Anyone can pick it up and blast through Novice races and even some of the Normal level Cups. But if you want to be good…really good…you’re going to have to practice. Since it looks so good and plays so well, I don’t see why that’s a bad thing.

There’s also that “games=movies” business which is a bunch of hooey and is to blame for a lot of the easy games we get these days. If games=movies, then games must feature less meaningful interactivity because the story is all important and more crucial to the design than the actual player interactions. For me, and I suspect some others, that’s garbage. Give me the tools and drop me in your game and let ME write the story. I can tell you stories of playing F-Zero GX and they’re all infinitely more entertaining than any “story mode” will ever be, even in this game.

–Dave

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F-Zero GX is the definition of this philosophy of game design. Anyone can pick it up and blast through Novice races and even some of the Normal level Cups. But if you want to be good…really good…you’re going to have to practice. Since it looks so good and plays so well, I don’t see why that’s a bad thing.

I couldn’t disagree more, Dave. ‘Looks so good’ I’ll give you (it’s nice to see natural terrain like trees in a game this fast). But ‘plays so well’? No way. It demands a dry and ungodly precise combination of reflexes, rote memorization, and repetition. I’d say F-Zero GX is the very definition of bad gameplay.

I think most of us appreciate the fine line between games being too easy and too hard. But an even more important part of the equation is that games also need to be gratifying. Tony Hawk, for instance, has a long shallow learning curve with room for new players, middling players, and s00per hardcore DUDE! players. And it offers a sense of accomplishment to all of them.

F-Zero GX, as BDGE pointed out, doesn’t do this. A casual and even middling player like myself quickly gets stuck without tickets and with no recourse but to keep playing the Novice circuits over and over because the fucking Story mode is a royal pain in the goddamn ass and there’s no way in hell I’m going to make any progress if I notch up the difficulty a level.

I’m with Drunkagain: I’m too old and have too many other things to do to put in the sort of practice that F-Zero GX demands of me. Fuck it. Where’s that Mario Golf disc?

 -Tom
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Gotta agree with Tom on general principles. From what he and others have said, Sega must have screwed up the Novice setting. There’s no excuse for denying access to gamers with moderate racing skills unless they replay the same run 15 times or more.

I’m probably going to love F Zero, though. It’s my type of zen.

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I totally appreciate that satisfaction, I just think my breaking point is before yours. In Dead to Rights (Xbox I must clarify since they made it easier on PS2 and Cube), for example, I played through 13 of the 15 levels and then put it down for a few months because I was so pissed off. I finally let myself beat it later on.

Other games aren’t so lucky, I did not finish Contra or Ikaruga because there are too many games coming out and my patience is not that great. I remember being younger and doing the same parts over and over again in games that were exceedingly hard. I’m already an anal game player, I retry whole levels until I do them without using any resources, but when a game forces me to be that way (oh add Resident Evil Zero to that list), I turn it off and move on to the next twenty games that are coming out.

But the question is, shouldn’t they at least allow people the chance to play the game how they want to play it? I’m very pleased with the fact that Silent Hill allows me to select easy on the action parts and hard on the puzzles. Other games should follow suit, and there should always be an option that is easy enough for everyone to play who wants to see the whole game that they paid 40-50$ for.

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Tom, how long have you had the game? Not saying that initial impressions can’t be accurate, but if you’ve only had the game since it went retail, I wish that people would accept that some games take longer to master, especially since there isn’t much to actually master besides racing (meaning once you “get it,” the game becomes too easy and repetitive). You can obviously still dislike the game, but I personally don’t think it’s a valid complaint on a critical level that the game should be easier if you’ve only had a few days with it. Sure, an individual can wish every game to be extremely easy or hard from the get go (how difficult a game is in the initial hours is extremely subjective), and that’s fine, but I’d hope that most gamers would be willing to put a bit of time into a game (especially racing where the actions are the same throughout the game) before judging its difficulty.

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You can obviously still dislike the game, but I personally don’t think it’s a valid complaint on a critical level that the game should be easier if you’ve only had a few days with it.

A few days? Maybe a few hours, but even that’s pushing it. I don’t think it should take more than an hour or two for players to become competent enough at a game to avoid feeling overly frustrated. It’s poor game design or mission design otherwise. Well, unless Tom is just a retard at this game.

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Are you kidding? that puts out all complex fighting games! A few hours at most of them and you WILL get frustrated playing on high difficulty or against another player - because you aren’t any good at the game yet. The mistake is not making the learning curve entertaining imho.

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A few days? Maybe a few hours, but even that’s pushing it. I don’t think it should take more than an hour or two for players to become competent enough at a game to avoid feeling overly frustrated. It’s poor game design or mission design otherwise. Well, unless Tom is just a retard at this game.

A few days for a person who doesn’t pour several hours into a game for each sitting. I think deciding in an hour or two if a game is too difficult isn’t being fair to the game and feel that racing games especially would be too easy if they allowed such a shallow learning curve. As I said before, whether or not the difficulty of a game is well designed is a tough and subjective call in the first few hours. It has more to do with the gamer than the game. Difficulty levels should be designed so most everyone can get a fun challenge after learning the ropes. I think that unfortunately most gamers expect to rank decently in a race when playing a game for first few hours even on easy mode - they expect a push-over that provides them with positive reinforcement in the early hours.

F-Zero may be frustrating in its difficulty, but I feel that part of that is due to gamers who don’t want to have to put in more than a few hours before they should be able to pass through most of story mode. In the end, I guess its always right to give the majority what they want.

edit: For me, overly frustrating in a racing game would be not being able to finish a race after getting the controls down and one or two plays and then not being able to place at least 3rd every dozen races or so for the first hour or two. I feel that your average gamer wouldn’t find the game rewarding enough with this difficulty, though, since much of the fun is in winning.

As I see it, Tom said he finished the first two novice races, but can’t quite get the third. If he’s only had the game since it went retail, it sounds like the difficulty curve might be too abrupt if anything - making it seem in novice mode that the player can do well until a certain moment ups the difficulty level too much. That can be overly frustrating, is poor design, and leads to a make or break point for the player in deciding to continue. Sounds like Novice mode wasn’t enough of a stumbling block to provide an adequate learning curve.

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FWIW, I got the game about a week before it went retail.

I understand what you’re saying, Greenjeans, but don’t give me this ‘you haven’t played it enough’ guff, young man! I’ve been looking around and I see now there’s plenty of belly-aching about the difficulty level, so it isn’t just me. F-Zero GX is not a game for anyone who isn’t a hardcore precision racing fan.

Having said that, it was pretty cool to play against only human players last night at Shoot Club. I still wouldn’t recommend it over many other racing games.

 -Tom
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I’ve been playing F-Zero GX for a few days now, and I must say that it rocks my fucking world from here to the moon.

Tom’s right, it’s hard as nails. The catch here is that every time I’ve lost a race (and that’s been a LOT…Story Mode is merciless), it’s been my own damn fault. I hit that wall or edged too close to the abyss or didn’t use the boost to keep my speed at max on the approach to the finish, whatever. I’m no big fan of high difficulty, but as long as the failure is on my head, I’m fine with it. The control is absolutely brilliant, IMO.

I’m blown away by the track design, the smoothness of the framerate, the detail in every bit of the tracks, the sheer number of racers it pits you against. The entire thing is just such a rush that I don’t even care if I lose half the time. After my first race through that pipe course with the pillars and spokes that flash by you as you scrape past them with an inch to spare, I was actually breathing hard. It’s a visceral experience, and I rarely find that in modern games.

I do think Story Mode is a little insane, but the rush of the game keeps me trying over and over. F-Zero GX has a huge “Yes sir, may I have another!” element to it.

It does demand a very high level of reflexes, skill, and knowing the tracks is an absolute must even on the Novice difficulty, but this is everything I’d hoped it would be. After KotOR, this is the best game I’ve played in 2003 thus far.

~MJK

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Well, Matt said it better than me so everyone should just read his post and then go buy the game. I don’t think there’s a more technically proficient game on any other console in this generation and it’s backed up with superb control and everything else mentioned in a few posts up above.

Between this and Disgaea, it’s like frickin’ Christmas.

–Dave

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I beat the Sapphire Cup (the second one) on Normal tonight. Finished 17th, 1st, 1st, 1st and 30th in that order. I’m just not seeing how difficulty is a problem here. When you don’t even have to win all the races, you should be able to earn tickets with just a little practice. I’ve put in maybe 4 to 5 hours so far and I’ve unlocked a number of cars and won two cups on Normal.

–Dave

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My opinion has changed drastically over the past couple days. I spent a good deal of time researching recommended vehicles that have proved successful for many others, taking those several suggestions and applying them to my style of play has really boosted my confidence and will to compete with the outrageous AI.

Whereas just a couple days ago I was kicking and screaming as I barely came out in the teens or tweens on the leaderboards in Novice and Standard; Currently I’m blasting into the top 3 positions damn near CONSISTENTLY on Expert difficulty on most every track. I’ve completed a third of the Story mode missions on Very Hard(with about half of them finished on Hard), and have unlocked a few AX specific vehicles and parts.

Don’t get me wrong, rote memorization and a bit of luck still feel as much a part of the experience as ever, but it’s not the frustrating core experience with which my first 6 hours of play felt like. I’ve come to terms with the corwd management and have found the biggest key is still just pure skillful driving. Very reminiscent of my time playing Midnight Club 2 wherein handling the course layouts with precision and taking key opportunities to nitro when applicable will bring success. The AI fights hard, especially on later difficulties, but they do fight fair more often than I had thought. Timing crushing hits that eliminate opponents isn’t quite so necessary on earlier difficulties, but proves phenomenally helpful on Expert. (360 spin dashes aren’t as effective as straight up side bashes).

The biggest hurdle is getting acclimated to the pacing, the drifting techniques, and of course combat. There are vehicles out there that I have found help make the learning curve a bit less tedious and irritating. Mighty Hurricane and Beastman’s Hyper Speeder come highly recommended as early purchases in the shop.

It’s an arcade game, this is a quarter cruncher racer slapped onto the Gamecube ready to be tackled if you’re willing to plop the cash in. It’s expensive and time consuming, and can get on your nerves; but it’s also visceral, rewarding, and packed to the gills with technique and challenges to overbear. I’m falling in love.

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I’ve warmed up to it a bit more, but I’m nowhere near falling in love. I don’t even have a mild crush on it.

I enjoy it as a multiplayer racer without the AI mucking up the action. It’s certainly proved much more accessible as a multiplayer game than I would have thought (I think the handicapping option that boosts your speed when you’re behind helps, although it is a pretty egregious cheat).

I’ve gotten better at the Grand Prix just by knowing the tracks; specifically, learning how to manage a few of the harder turns and taking special care on some of those insta-death stretches without guard rails. But it wasn’t easy getting to this point.

I still detest the stupid Story Mode. The fighting stuff requires way too much precision for my taste. I hate that you have to play through an entire cup in one sitting. And boy would I like to turn off that grating soundtrack. I certainly wouldn’t recommend F-Zero GX to most people, but I don’t detest it as much as I did the first week I had it.

 -Tom
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Perhaps you should consider snaking throughout the tracks, Tom? I mean if you want to play it mostly as a multiplayer game, then you can just snake to earn all the courses (AX tracks and Diamond Cup if you haven’t gotten it yet) and extra cars real quickly and easily, so you don’t have to mess with singleplayer. That way, you’ll also get the improved soundtrack earlier as well. (I really don’t like most of the music either.)

BTW, what’s everyone favorite course? Mine is the last track on the third cup, a Big Blue one. I LOVE that track and the second Mute City track. Mmmmm. I can’t stop racing on either of them.

I know this may sound weird, but I kind of wish they had made the game harder and faster. I really don’t think its fast enough, the speed seems more perfunctory than real, you really don’t feel like you’re going very fast if you ask me. Something about the way the tracks are made, its not quite like Maximum Velocity where I felt my head was going to fall off if it went any faster. You can easily come in first on the first four cups in first two difficulty modes and the third only takes a little practice, so that the only real challenge is in the fourth difficulty rank. Story mode only takes a couple of tries each time, with exception of the third story. A lot is because the tracks are usually easy to navigate and Sega rather stupidly put energy plates right before the end of the lap, so you can easily boost three or four times right at the end with no penalty and forward your rank easily. Also, the energy plates rejuvenate too much energy in too little time so there’s hardly ever any danger of blowing up or running out of boost energy. I think they should limit you to only one boost per lap like the 2D F-Zero’s.

Here’s my ranking of the series so far:

Maximum Velocity
F-Zero
F-Zero GX
BS F-Zero
F-Zero X

Granted, I like 'em all! :D The GBA one is a lot harder though and far more satisfying when you finally win it. It took me three months to master that game, addicted to it every day, whereas I’d pretty much unlocked everything in GX in 4 days. The original had the best difficulty and track design. (Silence is pretty much one of my favorite racing tracks of all time.) Too many of the tracks are boring or too hard for a low-grip craft to stay on track (improved in GX) in X, but the random-generated track thingy is the BEST!

-Kitsune

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What’s snaking? Although it sounds kind of dirty, I think I’m all for it, particularly if it’ll get me to the later tracks.

And I’m glad to hear there’s an improved soundtrack, although I still wish I could turn it off, or at least down. I prefer the sound of engine noises in my racing games. It’s much more visceral to hear an engine than a garage rock band or a techno ditty.

 -Tom
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I really disagree with you about the whole Boost argument you are making. I rather love the dynamic risk behind Energy loss and boost. Pads fill you up quickly, but often enough going for the pads forces you to miss out on some handy free turbo pads or in some cases they are placed in remote sections of track that goof the most straightforward line. Limiting the gamer to a single boost may seem more strategic, but I prefer the constant struggle between boosting often and risking that loss in grip and energy. What’s especially interesting about this system is how a skilled player can time and strategize boost control in such a way that you can stay completely boosted for entire laps hitting those refill pads with precision and under heavy control dampening(you are boosting afterall). It’s very exciting!

Boosting in the 2D titles often felt more of an afterthought, too much care was taken to limit yourself to boosting on only the most momentous sections of track. Of course the 2D games were quite different beasts in that they took cornering management to a different level beyond GX. The idea being you were constantly making progress or you fail. Land those corners, wait for that boost moment, rank up by next lap or retry again and again. The new GX system creates a much more dynamic playfield where progress in the race feels more like an undulating wave as conditions fluctuate among the pack. Boosting is a more integral part of the race experience and not relegated to simply being the wildcard. Preference is debatable, I did rather enjoy the 2D games, but I prefer the freedom that GX offers on the track. You never really feel completely hopeless in your standings during a race unlike in Max Velocity where perfection will often only barely bring victory.

I will kind of agree about the difficulty though, it took me many hours to really come to grips with the control and acclimate myself to the speed. Now that I feel much more comfortable with handling, pacing, and have mastered the more advanced techniques like drifting and combat, those GP races I so feared have now turned out to feel rather tame afterall. Still, it is an obvious mark of a skillful player when one can navigate the courses and conditions flawlessly to pull out top rankings on higher difficulties. Success damn near demands it, boosting or combat alone won’t win races.

Oh and Tom don’t expect to really get much out of snaking especially if you are still having difficulty coming to grips with crowd management. Snaking on it’s own is a devious little drifting trick that isn’t exactly easy to pull off outside of practice and repetition on a few very obvious courses. It’s not like inputting a code! :P

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Actually, the technique is easy enough to do, its doing it during an entire race, turns and all, that’s a little more difficult. What you do, Tom, is slide the bar that measures between max speed and acceleration alllll the way to the left as far as it will go. Then you use the car when in the race to “snake” like one of those bastards on the LA freeways who swerves between cars (its looks uncannily like that). (I used to live in California, you know!) You press R while veering right and then L while veering left, or vice versa its important to push the control pad and not just use L and R buttons, but you’ll get speed boosts each time you do this (one swerve to the right or left, that is) worth about 200 km/h. Continue to do it and you should easily so yourself hitting 1600-2000 km/h quite frequently.

There’s no need to do it more than once if you don’t want to, but you’ll lose the speed quite quickly if you don’t boost or hit a speed ramp right afterward. Knowing that, though, you can use it quickly get a speed burst with no penalty to energy after hitting a wall or an obstacle and you should “slow down” right up at your max speed quicker than it could possibly happen otherwise, so its good to use as a recover. Best of all, it really tends to hurt enemy cars, especially if you do a Z-spin or use a heavier racer (its also more effective with a heavier car, but more difficult to pull off).

While it easiest to do in straightaways, its just as effective in raising your speed on small tracks and turns, because it doesn’t really depend on the wideness of your snaking, the faster you do it, the quicker you’re speed will go up, not the wider.

Practice it 2-3 times and you should be able to pass 7-8 enemy crafts every time you use it, so it makes for a great catch-up measure ESPECIALLY at the start of the race and right before the finish line. I can usually snake and slide to 1800 km/h instantly while taking an average of 7 racers off the start line.

Anyway, it should make the game significantly easier. For instance, on that one story mode where you have to kill the lead racer? If you snake from the start, you should be able to kill each car after the first seven in one hit, as they all are at critical before they reach the energy plate and snaking will allow you to approach the guy much sooner.

It was thought that this was a cheat at first, but then it became apparent that the computer and ghost racers DO use the technique for quick boosts, they just don’t try to link it together as much as human players do.

Best thing about snaking? If you get really good at it, you can start flying and making up new shortcuts by using hills that wouldn’t usually launch you in the air.

BDGE, yeah, I agree with you that it makes the competition more like a wave and gives you a better chance to come back at the end of the race, and the first part is cool, but the second part…I think its too much overplayed. I do enjoy boosting throughout the entire track, and once I set that as my goal on all 26 tracks, I was much less disappointed with the game as soon as I realized all 26 were doable. (I’ve got 17 down so far, 9 to go.) So its good for that, but in the end I think it lessens the intensity too much. I realize you need to even more on the ball in MV, but one need hardly be perfect, it fits more with the theme of danger and intensity like the people who are racing are pros, whereas in GX, if you were watching it on TV, you might think the racer who came in first was rather an amateur saved by boosts.

I also disagree with you on the use of boosts in Maximum Velocity and the original, they weren’t so much wildcards to me as they were tied certain areas of a track. For instance, turning on a hard set of two turns, I can boost so that I ricochet through them, which usually lowers your speed too much, but if I can tilt enough the boost lasts so that I’m at my max speed out of the ricochet and turn when it fades. Or I can use it on a straight-away like you said. Or I use it so that I make a 180 u-turn slide and then boost. As you memorize track layout you get used to using it in certain areas, not just straightaways, but developing techniques to shoot you like a pinball or for instance, have you ever boosted, then taken off your finger from the acceleration button or braked into an enemy CPU and then once hit from behind, slammed back on again? It works even better and is especially good for getting “knocked” through a turn. As I analyze where I am and what I need to do, I can combine several saved up boosts or use it at a part I’m lacking at for that lap, or save it for later if I’ve done that lap well. I think it lends to much more freeform strategy, because its not always there to help you and depends more on where you need to use it than as a stop-gap measure.

That brings me to another thing, I really liked how at a certain point your energy would show that you couldn’t get past a certain speed in F-Zero and even more so in Maximum Velocity and if you got really critical, you wouldn’t hardly be able to get any speed at all. That’s completely taken away from GX as you can easily go at your maxspeed with one sliver of health left.

BTW, one day you and I need to both gang up on Drinky to finally convince him of the glory of the original Devil May Cry. I’ve tried, you’ve tried it. But we’ve never tried it together. :wink:

-Kitsune

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Well… I got the game a couple of days ago and have been loving it.

When i first got it i was a little overwhelmed… but once you get into it, it really is an awesome game. I managed to unlock the Diamond cup today and im on the 6th story mission, so im doing alright i guess.

However, im still having trouble with drift turns and combat. I understand how the drift turn is used, but I can’t understand the advantage over a slide turn. What is the optimal way to use those turns?

Also… how exactly do you use the side attack properly? The spin attacks is fairly easy to understand… but I have not once used that side attack.

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Sweet, I just unlocked Master Class and just earned a really nice AX car by beating Story chapter 1 in Very Hard. Took me about 30 minutes of pure experimentation to plan the best lines, but damn it felt great to land all 35 crystals and cross the line with a second left on the clock. What a rush!

Kitsune: That’s a very interesting approach you have for boosts in F Zero GBA. Keep in mind that strategies such as that are relegated to a very small group, and while you did weed out luxurious tricks, very few people actually will.

If anything, having multiple boosts does infer that sense of instant gratification upon the gamer which I think a greater audience may identify with. Screw up a corner? That’s all good make up time with a few boosts! Just make note to hit that recharge pad next time you see it. Simple and more straighforward than being forced to cope with unsavory conditions such as weeding out pinball tactics to maximize such limited reserves. :wink: It’s just more approachable and appetizing, I dig that.

Nevertheless, did you by chance happen to try out Viewtiful Joe? I played a demo for it and while it was neat and flashy, it seemed the combat felt very limited. Just wondering if the full game tends to offer more variety to the bashing and mashing.

Funk: I tend to only use the L+R slide through extreme corners where it’s obvious normal turning or L/R turning won’t get me through it smoothly. In essence it’s not very often I use it aside from extreme circumstances. Generally you sort of feel when you it needs to be applied as you move through a corner. One perfect expanple is the U-turn on the final track in the Ruby cup. Only place where I consistently seem to use it off the top of my head. It also very much depends on the type of car chosen how often you will use this feature. A-Grip cars will hardly ever need it, but D or E will often depend on it.

As far as combat goes, the side impact is more damaging. Essentially the 360 spin is most useful for attacks being made to the front or behind you(or breaking up groups). Side dashes are crushing and very powerful. I tend to try and plan them out by watching my opposition very closely. As I close in on a foe, I try to inch my way near their car, and as we get parrallel to each other, bash em (with X+stick direction, but only quick taps of each so you don’t go flyuing past them into a wall) and mark down a kill. It takes practice, especially considering it’s not often you can find someone moving at a similar pace, but after a few successful attempts it becomes second nature and then you can start being real snazzy, boosting up close to them and taking them out while accelerating well past them. It’s very thrilling. Good luck!