Since I work in the town that the superintendent lives, I for one am grateful that he went to the next town over and didn’t poop on our track :-)

Damn. He’s a serial shitter.

According to police, a school resource officer and staffers at Holmdel High School began surveiling the track after learning that someone was leaving feces on the track and football field “on a daily basis.”

This was probably a rhetorical question, but it’s worth answering in the interest of understanding.

First, there’s a lot of fear that allowing men into women’s bathrooms will lead to sexual assaults, peeping toms, and the like.

Second, conservatives fear that their children will be traumatized by having to share a bathroom with someone not of their physical sex.

Third, this is seen as just the latest in a long string of assaults on traditional Christian values.

None of these are logical things to fear. There’s no evidence for #1, the evil and/or disturbed individuals who assault others will do it no matter what you allow transgender folks to do. Children are only traumatized if you’ve taught them they should be for #2, and oh by the way they might actually learn some empathy for others if this is used as a teaching opportunity. You have to ignore Jesus’ inclusive teachings for #3, which is unfortunately very common in many churches.

Of course, logic rarely factors into these things. The real reason for pushing this issue is that hard-right politicians in more conservative states see this as an issue that allows them to mobilize their base. The folks who come out for Republican primary elections buy these arguments and love the politicians that side with them. It’s another wedge forcing moderates out of the system.

To gman1225, let us compare your post to The List: (I have added numbers to The List)

1)Engage Demand an elaborate, time-consuming comparison / analysis between your position and theirs.

2)Entangle Insist that the Liberal put their posts in their own words. That will consume the most time and effort for the Liberal poster.

They will be unable to spread numerous points on numerous blogs if you have them occupied. Allowing a Liberal to post a web link is too quick and efficient for them. Tie them up. We are going for delay of game here.

  1. Demoralize Dismiss their narrative as rubbish immediately. Do not even read it. Once the Liberal goes through the trouble to research, gather, collate, compose and write their narrative your job is to discredit it. Make it obvious you tossed their labor-intensive narrative aside like garbage. This will have the effect of demoralizing the Liberal poster. It will make them unwilling to expend the effort again, and for us, that is a net win.

  2. Attack Attack the source. Any Liberal website or information source must be marginalized, trivialized and discounted. Let the blogosphere know that Truthout.org, thinkprogress.org,the nation and moveon.org are Liberal rubbish propaganda. Discredit Liberal sources of information whenever possible.

  3. Confuse Challenge the Liberal position with questions, always questions. The questions need not be relevant. The goal is to knock the Liberal poster off their game, and seize control of the narrative.

Once you have control you can direct the narrative to where you want it to go, which is always away from letting the Liberal make their point. Conversely, do not respond to their leading questions. Don’t rise to their bait.

  1. Contain Your job is to prevent the presentation and spread of Liberal viewpoints. Do anything you must do to prevent a Liberal poster from presenting a well-reasoned argument or starting a civil discussion. Don’t allow a Liberal to present their dogma unchallenged EVER.

  2. Intimidate Taunt the Liberals. If you find yourself in a debate with a Liberal where you are losing a fact-based argument then call them a name to derail their diatribe. Remember your goal is to prevent a meaningful exchange of views and ideas which may portray Liberalism in a positive light. Your goal as a conservative blogger is to stop the spread and advance of the Liberal agenda. Play upon any identifiable idiosyncrasies, character flaws, physical traits, names, to their disadvantage . Monitor other posts for vulnerabilities you can exploit. Stay on the offensive with Liberal wimps. Don’t let up.

  3. Insult their Movement Assign as many character and moral flaws to Liberals as you can. You must portray Liberals as weak, vacillating, indecisive, amoral, baby killers, unpatriotic, effete snobs, elitists, Leftists, Commies, sense of entitlement, promiscuous, union lovers, tax raisers, Welfare Queens, Socialists, lazy, sex-obsessed, druggies, Jesus haters, moochers, troop hater,.etc. Always use these negative epithets when referring to, or describing Liberals / democrats.

  4. Deceive Identify yourself as a moderate, centrist or independent. It will also cause Liberals to lower their guard a bit, which gives you an effective opening. This may also have the effect of aligning conservative viewpoints with the real moderates we are attempting to reach. It may serve to influence some moderates over to the Republican side.

  5. Patriotism Always claim the high ground of pro-military, low taxes, strong defense, morality and religion. We own those virtues. Learn how to exploit them when debating.

  6. Demean Always refer to the other side as Liberals, Lefty Liberals, Libbies. Never assign them the status of a bona-fide political party. Hang Liberalism around their neck like a burning tire. Make Liberalism appear as a moral turpitude or a character flaw. They are NEVER, NEVER to be referred to as the Democratic Party. At best it is the democrat party. Never assign them respect.

  7. Opportunity Be alert for ways to insert our catch phrases into your narrative. You will receive your daily list of talking points and topics that we want you to cover. Consistent, persistent repetition and inculcation will drive our talking points home and so will neuro-linguistic programming. Stick with it and our talking points will become truth. If they debunk your talking point, ignore it, and move on as if you didn’t hear it.

So let’s see:
We have #3: “Your implication that Democrats do not stoke irrational fear in their base is unfounded on its face, but it’s wrong even on this very issue”

We have #4: "Obama aggressively escalated the transgender bathroom fight in an arguably illegal way – perhaps to fire up his base of leftists? "

We have #6" Regardless, the whole “our side is better than their side” argument is not particularly intellectually engaging, and it’s actually a bit ironic – given that this whole thread seems to exist to celebrate the individual failings of various members of Trump’s orbit in some sort of hate orgy."

We have #7: “leftists”, “aggressively escalated”, etc.

We have #9 by implication: the tone of gman1225’s post in many ways sound moderate, when you ignore the bad logic, false equivalence, and cookie cutter ditto-esque approach.

We have #11: “leftists,” etc.

and we have #12: the whole post is basically a recitation of the hard-right “catch-outline” on false equivalence.

And that’s just gman’s first post today in this thread. I’m pretty sure he would go 12 for 12 if I read all his posts.

Now that I have seen the list, it makes many things obvious, especially when not to waste my time on a poster. (And this post is aimed at the forum, not at gman.)

To the forum: dudes, if you are engaging this guy, I’ll send my Jehovah’s Witness mom to your door and you can debate religion with her, b/c you seem to enjoy that sort of thing. Your chances of having a meaningful exchange of ideas with gman are just as good as your chances of converting my mom to Buddhism.

I think we should at least try to have a conversation. If you assume the worst from the start about what people’s motives are, that’s never going to happen.

The belt tightening begins! Finally Trump is showing his fiscal conservatism by asking for cuts to the federal budget of…$11 billion. And I’m totally sure he puts his pinky finger in his mouth whenever he says the amount,too.

As a reminder, the 2018 federal budget is $1.3 trillion.

There are certain red flags that IMO indicate no meaningful conversation can be had. In gman’s case, his entire initial post was about false equivalence and that’s a big red flag to me.

I fully agree that we should try to have conversations with people we disagree with and that we should be exposed to diverse thought.

However, the problem with the American right these days, as evidence by that List I posted, is that they are not interested in conversation or meaningful exchange for information.

Here are a few examples from the list:

" your goal is to prevent a meaningful exchange of views and ideas which may portray Liberalism in a positive light. "

"Dismiss their narrative as rubbish immediately. Do not even read it. Once the Liberal goes through the trouble to research, gather, collate, compose and write their narrative your job is to discredit it. Make it obvious you tossed their labor-intensive narrative aside like garbage. "

etc.

Now I believe that list was probably not written by conservatives as it’s just too naked of truth. But I do believe it accurately describes their tactics. Consider it descriptive rather than prescriptive. But the pattern is there, and I’ve already wasted enough brain cells on bad faith arguments and posts.

I wonder how many of the things on that list most of us are guilty of on a daily basis if you step back and look at it from a distance.

Oh crap, I asked a question. Does that mean I’m one of those damned Trumpistas now?

Hey, look at me go, I’ve got (at minimum) 1, 5, 7, and 11 covered and my post is a whole lot shorter!

Couldn’t you just hang a sign up that said “No Republicans Allowed”?

It’s commonly attributed to Karl Rove.

If anyone saw my post before it was deleted, that was a colossal moderationfail on my part. Please disregard. I misread something and drew an incorrect conclusion. My sincere apologies to @gman1225, who I hope will keep posting!

-Tom

Timex, thanks again for the thoughtful reply. You make some great points. I’m traveling today but will try to reply later in the week. ( I need to rethink some things I wrote especially about Aristotelian approach to personhood, which was not so hot)

Just quickly regarding your factual question , note that Obama’s decision to threaten to withhold funding on the transgender issue did indeed trigger an August 2016 lawsuit by states regarding its constitutionality, but Democrats lost the election months later and the issue died, as far as I know, due to that timing. https://news.vice.com/article/13-states-sue-over-obamas-unconstitutional-transgender-bathroom-policy

The logic for the states’ lawsuit would be solid I think. It is similar to why Trump cannot legally strong-arm states to change immigration policy by threatening to withhold federal funds for other areas. Unless I am missing some key distinction you see?

Sharpe — I think there are some logical contortions in your post to try to fit my comments to your List (for example, is saying someone “aggressively escalated” a position really an “taunt” that is meant to “intimidate”, in your opinion? Can my entire post really be a “catchphrase” as you suggest at the end?). Regardless as has been pointed out, virtually all of your criticisms could apply to your own posts, and the posts of others here I think. They seem very broad. I am trying to argue in good faith and if you or other posters disagree, they are free to not have a conversation with me on their own accord, and I’m confident that would be my loss.

Aren’t individual rights and freedoms federally protected? If a state legislates in a way that is discriminatory or infringes on individual rights and freedoms (e.g. reintroducing segregation or something like that), the federal government could intervene I would think?

Filing a lawsuit is not the same as winning a lawsuit. Until they actually win a case, and the court declares it unconstitutional, then it’s constitutional.

In terms of the fundamental distinction between Trump’s action and Obama’s, that would be the fact that Obama actually had a legal rationale for his actions. The rules that he was imposing were derived from existing legislature, that being Title IX of the civil rights act. So the argument would have likely gone something like, “Title IX already explains a set of rules regarding the expenditure of these funds, so we are merely enforcing that.” I’m certainly not a constitutional lawyer, so we’d have to see how it actually played out in court, but there is at least the framework for a defense of the actions.

Trump’s action regarding sanctuary cities has no such basis, as there is no existing restriction on that funding which is being applied by his actions. There is no current legislation which says that state governments must provide assistance to federal law enforcement actions. Thus, his action is unconstitutional because he is creating new restrictions on receipt of government grants out of whole cloth.

Which, iirc, there is a law specifically prohibiting so that Presidents don’t pull this kind of shit.

I’m not sure if there’s a law about it, but it has been ruled unconstitutional multiple times, as it has been interpreted as the executive branch overstepping its powers into the realm of the legislature.

Trump’s actions in this case just highlight more of the hypocrisy from his supporters, who railed against Obama’s actions (In some cases, correctly) because they said it was an unjustified expansion of executive power… but suddenly, when Trump does it even more overtly, they are fine with it.

Because many of Trump’s supporters want a strongman/neo-totalitarian leader, just not OBAMA as that leader.

Sadly, this is the case for a large portion of both political parties.

Executive overreach is fine when it’s “our guy” but terrible when it’s the other dude. And once one group gets in power they do nothing to fix it, assuming they’ll be in power forever. Then you have someone like Trump come along and walk through all those giant holes we’ve been making and everyone rightfully freaks out.