3456

It’s also the reason why this should not really be compared to Witcher. Two very different experiences, where Witcher is more authored, while Bethesda games rely on the simulation and emergent situations that follow.

3457

I think that’s a reasonable point. Both are viable, reasonable approaches to game design, coming from different philosophical approaches.

3458

Have to admit, I’m not altogether buying that. I enjoyed the hell out of Fallout 4 but the emergent gameplay wasn’t the main reason why. It’s an extremely ‘authored’ game if, by ‘authored,’ one means full of hand-crafted quest content with written/recorded dialogue etc. I am still a believer in The Big Dream of a living-world CRPG (have been since Ultima V blew me away a quarter century ago), but I’m not convinced that FO4 is that much further developed along that axis than what I’ve seen of Witcher 3 (just a few hours’ worth, so far). Yes, you occasionally stumble across different factions fighting each other and the NPC AI is less predictable, but I’m still waiting to see the “radiant” stuff have a really essential impact on the crunchy gameplay core. Most of Fallout 4, for me, involved either doing quests or looting/crafting/killing, which is pretty similar to a lot of other RPGs, MMO and otherwise.

I think it’s quite appropriate to compare FO4 to the Witcher 3, or any other action-RPG, as they have more in common (set against the backdrop of all the game genres out there) than what separates them.

3459

That’s awesome :) Emergent chaos is absolutely one of strong points for Bethesda games.

3460

Though I never tried a 7-way, this was indeed one of the highlights of the game for me as well.

3461

That’s also a reasonable argument. I think I tend towards the former poster more–I think the authoring in Fallout 4 is less successful, by accident or design, than it should be, thus the emergent elements end up carrying more of the load. I think it is lucky, perhaps, that that makes for a game I find pretty entertaining, but then, I’m usually far less enthralled by heavily scripted or directed narratives. Or call them intentional narratives, I guess. In books, sure, but int games, I much prefer a touch of chaos to too much order.

Bethesda flops pretty hard with telling a coherent story in Fallout 4. I’ll agree they probably tried to and intended to tell a good one, but the main quest is dismal and unengaging, and easily forgettable. It becomes merely a vehicle to get to a place that other people want you to get to, and once there, whatever drama was promised in the set up sort of fizzles. The other hand-crafted content in F4 isn’t so much authoring a narrative as sprinkling the world with vignettes.

3462

The problem is the “emergent gameplay” (which is a way overused term) elements in fallout 4 basically consist only of groups of enemies randomly encountering each other. This is pretty cool, but i don’t think you can build a genre on it.

I don’t believe there is anything emergent about “settlement defense.” In fact, even if you have a heavily fortified settlement, super mutants will still spawn right next to it and walk by forever. For me this means that even though i have a massively defended base, every time i move a settler out of it, the same 2 super mutants attack the settler in the same exact place (and i kill them every time of course). The only interesting attack i’ve seen on a settlement has almost certainly been the result of a scripted event. The rest have been buggy, “defend your settlement because there is an attack” missions.

I’d argue that emergent gameplay is better even in a title like Mordor.

And really the problem with that line of thinking is that the world doesn’t react to anything you do.

3463

This is pretty much the most damning criticism of the game, and one I have to agree with. The only real impact you have is in some ambient stuff like radio broadcasts or NPC chatter. One or more of the companions might make a comment, but they don’t actually do anything about it. You do have a physical impact on the world, in terms of the after effects of your choices, but it’s almost as if it hadn’t happened when you talk to people.

It would be much more conducive to a real RPG vibe if you could change more of the world I’d have to agree.

3464

Sure you can have an impact on the world in FO. You can kill off many people, NPCs etc, build settlements and so on. None of which is possible neither on Witcher or Mordor. And you simply don’t get stories like above on Witcher, but you do get emotionally relevant scenes (like people crying in front of burnt buildings, except they do it for ever and nothing you do affects them). But you do get a great, well-authored story.

Now, if you simply think that Fallout is not very fun, that is fine. But the fact is the underlying mechanics are very different and built with different intent.

3465

The world does not react to you building settlements, which is one of my largest problems with them.

As mentioned, even a super fortified settlement will still have super mutants spawning RIGHT outside the doors.

I suppose it is true you can kill basically anyone. I have not tried that personally as it seemed dumb. By killing a quest giver, i’m just making their quests impossible to get/complete, right?

Contrary to the typical narrative when someone questions a bethesda game, i do like fallot 4 (enough to preorder the game and the season pass), but i like it for what it is. It is a well done open world rpg with more focus on story than previous games, it has a decent minecraft module and it has decent weapon/armor customization.

I take issue when people claim different factions mindlessly fighting on contact makes the game somehow different from other open world rpgs.

Fallout 4 can be compared with witcher 3 because both are rpgs with open worlds. That witcher 3 also has the writing/world quality of a a shorter, more scripted experience is something it has over fallout 4, it is not a reason not to compare the two.

Note that while i do prefer more focus on writing, characters and the illusion of the game reacting to your choices (ie choices and consequences), i have played all of Bethesda’s games going back to daggerfalls.

For me personally, Fallout 4 adds a number of things that i’m a HUGE fan of in general:
=> Crafting
=> Base management
=> More focus on companions

The problem is that the first two feel unfinished. I was impressed with the work they did on companion stories (the AI is still horrible). Some of the companion stories and banter are stuff i’d expect to see in a bioware game.

I’m deeply unhappy with how lazy bethesda has been with fallout 4. All of the new mechanics they added feel incomplete. The perk system is full of problems, including the capstone perk of melee being completely broken. They sued the same engine as Fallout 3. What were they doing that they couldn’t do these things better?

3466

Lazy? Lazy? What a ridiculous thing to say. This is one of the most complex games ever made. It’s 100 times more complex and creative than anything CD Projeckt has made. That’s not a slight against them, W3 is a wonderful game but Fallout 4 makes it look like it was programmed by babies. How often do you get bandits attacking settlemwnts you created in W3? How often does someone’s relative confront you for killing their relatives in W3? It’s a baby’s game in comparison.

Also, I would love anyone decrying the AI in this game to compare it to another game with better AI. It simply doesn’t exist. Bethesda is the best in the entire industry at AI. Just because its wonky sometimes doesn’t diminish it. It’s leaps more complex than anything out there.

3467

Metal Gear solid V.

Also, i’ve only once had an “organic” settlement attack. This attack was most likely scripted. The rest are triggered by food + water > defense. When these happen, they have always been buggy for me. I go to the settlement as per the mission, but there is nobody there. Then i sleep at the settlement and either enemies spawn or the quest completes.

I’ve never had someone’s relative confront me for killing their relative in fallout 4, or any bethesda game. What do i have to do to trigger that?

Here is why i think bethesda was lazy with fallout 4:
=> Settlement system does not feel finished or fully integrated in to the game. It feels like a mod someone layered on top of the game. It is also buggy and lacks depth. Too many things are just cosmetic with no gameplay effects.
=> Loot system seems complex at first glance, but after playing for a while you realize that there are only a couple options worth using
=> Perk system… same as loot system. Too many broken, useless or just worse than other options perks
=> My ipad app stopped working with my game and i’m not alone in this problem. Yes, i realize that the app is more of a fun addon, and i do not feel bethesda owes me a working companion app, but it still makes me sad because the UI actually worked pretty well with the app on an ipad as a companion

My reasoning is that other than the first three things mentioned, fallout 4 is EXTREMELY close to the previous game. Thus i feel that they should have had the time/money to polish some of the new stuff they added at least a little.

3468

Well, as said, you can definitely argue that you don’t think they’ve succeeded in what they attempted. I think I’ve said already what my take is, which is more about different philosophies regarding the functionality of the world. To me it is obvious and clear, and for the record, I’m happy that there are different kind of takes on the open world setting. But I do get annoyed when people say that somehow Fallout is obsolete due to Witcher existing, or the other way around, because they are focusing on different things.

3469

I’m a bit at lost. I suppose you are being sarcastic.

3470

Hehehe

Fallout 4 isn’t obsolete due to Witcher existing, since they indeed focus on different things.
Fallout 4 is obsolete due to New Vegas existing, because they focus on same things except New Vegas does them much better.

3471

New Vegas doesn’t have as much to do, and has more vast expanses of nothingness, comparatively. It does a lot of other things better, though, like putting the player into the world, IMO.

I don’t think Bethesda was lazy at all. I think they tried to do a lot of things and didn’t have the wherewithal to do them all equally well, or finish them off, so they ended up with a lot of ambitious stuff 80% done.

3472

Yeah, calling Bethesda lazy is effectively trolling. Considering the size of the studio, they’ve accomplished amazing things.

3473

I would never call Bethesda lazy. I can see the huge amount of work put into their games and they are fairly small studio, around 110 people.
I would just call them…harsh, I know…incompetent, at least as far as lot of the design and writing is concerned.

I guess my issue with Bethesda is, they sold 20-30 million copies of Skyrim, they are by far the most financially successful RPG studio of all time. With that success and background, with them making the same type of game for 20 years now, I simply expect more. Especially when I see Obsidian do better game than them…in 18 months, with it being the first game of that type they ever did.

That said, guess what I am about to do? Yes, start Fallout 4 and go clean up some supermutant base for that cocky asshole Maxson.

3474

New Vegas has the upper hand with dialogue and permanence of actions; in all other aspects Fallout 4 is superior.

-Todd

3475

I don’t even know how this talk started, as there is barely any emergence in Fallout 4. Close to 0.

You just find from time to time bandits or mutants or synths firing each other, and every x hours once settlement is attacked, that’s it, it’s x fighting y. That’s barely emergent, from what we know the game is just spawning them just beyond your visual range so you can find them fighting and making an illusion of an alive world (which wouldn’t be emergent gameplay). But in 83 hours of play I never saw anything that could be called advanced, like settlers forming caravans and trading, or bandits or Brotherhood paladins going out from their bases and exploring and looting the world. Which is why I think it’s the game just randomly spawning pre-set groups of enemies from a library of dozens variations so you can find them in the wasteland.
Another example, I saw a few times the vertibird shooting at things on land and sometimes being shot down… but I never saw a vertibird landing or getting off from the Airport. It’s all fake.