ShivaX
3536
That is a fair point, but I would argue if one’s point relies on a vague, non-term then maybe one’s argument isn’t all that strong or at least not very well stated.
I just had a super cool emergent moment, father sent me to meet a courser in order to get some synth back.
So I go to the location of the meet and there are two vertibirds flying overhead there and several BoS soldiers on the ground. And of course they are all attacking the courser and he is attacking them. And of course the courser is much weaker than them, but as and Important Story Character™ has immortal essential flag on him, so they cannot kill him. And he cannot kill them, since they wear power armor and are much stronger. So I was just chilling there on the roof for about half an hour waiting if the courser manages to kill them, someday (I did not want to do it since I am allied with BoS, for now). And of course he gets sat down on the ground by them about twenty times, but they cannot kill him and he cannot kill them.
Emergence!
So I emergently shut down the game and went to post about this supercool experience on qt3.
Oghier
3538
Getting a bit mean spirited here, considering the subject matter.
That wasn’t emergent. Exactly the same thing happened in my game.
IIRC, if that event is at Bunker Hill (there’s another “get the synth” thing at another location; the Bunker Hill one involves multiple synths), it’s flagged as one of the quests that accepting puts you permanently at odds with the BoS. Dunno if that’s the event you’re talking about, but it would explain the situation–you’re expected to kill the BoS guys.
Oghier
3541
He knows. He’s being sarcastic, mocking the people who’ve posted examples of stuff that they liked.
Paul_cze
3542
Nope, this was before it. I had no reason to be hostile to BoS at that point.
/sarcasm
kedaha
3543
I believed Emergence to refer to the phenomenon whereby smaller/simpler mechanics (in a game sense) give rise to larger and more complex mechanics that are more than the sum of (and can’t be strictly explained by) the original rules/laws that led to their creation.
EVE would be a good example, as would many of the old text based browser games - or indeed, D&D.
The examples given for fallout 4 (two hostile factions meet and fight, or being able to follow a character which is scripted to follow a set route across a plane and that engages with scripted spawning of monsters) do not seem to fit any definition of emergence, unless emergence means unexpected or unforeseen.
When I realised that the wasteland fights were just very basic facile interactions of scripted events, I lost all interest in them. The memes about vertibirds falling out of the skies…
That’s a good definition to work with, I’d agree, and I’d also agree that by that definition it’s arguable whether F4 has “emergence.” But, the examples you cite are mostly multiplayer games; when you have people involved in a sort of symbiosis with the programmed mechanics, you will naturally get a lot more weirdness than in a purely single player game. Pen and paper RPGs are the quintessential (quotidian?) examples of emergent gameplay for that reason, and MMOs are often a close second.
In single player games, I suspect most emergence, however defined, is more smoke and mirrors than coding brilliance, but the effects can be similar. It’s not that important to me how things happen, as that they are happening. You may see “very basic facile interactions,” and you’re probably right, but to me they bring the gameworld alive in a very pleasing way.
I’m really enjoying this thread as a non player but F3 and NV fan, a good debate.
I feel from reading that it suffers a bit from the ‘moar everything’ syndrome and that could be a reason it is polarizing. For example I find crafting an important part of good games but entirely non critical and only put in the effort when its for an obvious or big benefit. If anything I thought NV went a bit too far with crafting for my own tastes.
What I love about Bethesda games is not even the emergent play, its more the sense of discovery and the feeling of a world with communities, feels like that is intact.
Oghier
3546
It is intact. There are little communities all over the map, and many come with storylines about how they came about and what their strategy for survival has been. The sense of discovery remains, as there are an enormous number of things to discover.
As for the emergence debate, I won’t wade into the definition. I will say that the game provides some variety and surprises. I’ve seen a certain airplane wreck occupied by four different factions at different times. I’ve also seen fights between them over that spot. None of those differences change the main plot, but I enjoyed them nonetheless. It’s the same with settlement building. I find it fun for its own sake :)
Another thing that gives them longevity & huge replayability - B’s games are like wine (starting from horrible launches…) =)
Finally finished it!
meh.
Ok, that was too flippant.
This game is just bizzare. In some respects it is the best Bethesda game to date (some interesting NPCs, finally, some well written dialogue, few cool quests, better gun feel), in others it is as good/bad as previous games (exploration, atmosphere), and in others it is totally butchered and regressive (dialogue system, skill system, roleplay options).
On the whole I would say it is the worst mainline Fallout game, because those regressive aspects are really fucking regressive.
But I still liked it, 7/10 or so.
Regarding the ending,
spoilers
When sonny decided to make me next Director, I decided to fuck it, I am going this way since I just want to finish this. So I went and killed Railroad, then Brotherhood (somewhat epic battle, as Bethesda likes to do), then it is goodbye son and thanks for all the fish, errrm I mean Institute. And then a melodramatically cliche cutscene that in no way reflects anything I did and is so generic that I suspect every ending has it. And then not even credits, just straight into the game. So no real sense of closure either.
Bethesda, why do you have to suck so hard. Obsidian already provided a template on how to do RPGs of your type. Please please try to do better.
RichVR
3549
From what I’ve read, your mistake was following the main story and finishing it. Not the fault of the game. ;-)
According to Steam, which I do not trust, I’ve been playing for 71 hours. I dropped by Diamond and left. I guess I’ve been dicking around in “the wasteland” for a while. Going back there tonite. Looking forward to it. End game? What end game?
I know you are not being serious but this attitude really pisses me off anyway. With how much Bethesda is selling, it is high fucking time they hired some competent writers already.
Why?
Their formula has gotten them massive sales and a large fan base. There is also no indication that their fan base wants decent writing. They really don’t have any reason to spend more money on writing.
RichVR
3552
I am the guy that loves Fallout 4. I do not care what you are selling. I payed full price for a game that I am enjoying the fuck out of. I understand the issues that you and others are having. But I do not care. I do not have a dog in this race. Of course I feel sorry for people that need to tell the people like me why we shouldn’t enjoy the game. Whatever.
The ending of the main quest is anti-climactic, to say the least. The whole main quest is a smorgasbord of missed opportunities and wasted chances, and its denouement frankly sucks, no matter how you play it out. But as noted, that’s probably as much because it isn’t the point as it is a failure of effort (though I do think there is some of that here too). That is, the game is essentially a sandbox-ish thing with the questline there to provide a sort of structure but the foundation of the game being a sort of treadmill of fighting and looting. It’s a somewhat disorganized and potentially unfulfilling pastiche in many ways, but it works in many other ways.
ShivaX
3554
The problem I always have with Bethesda is that their stories are crap, yet they’re also so integral to the game in a lot of ways.
I’d love to see them move away from the formula of “Do A, B, C with NPCs X, Y, Z” and just have things be more free-form. The formula doesn’t work for them and enjoyment of their games always comes in spite of their stories that they force people to follow so closely. I’d love to be able to advance the story without doing the required set pieces. Make it harder to do, but make it possible. Don’t make me talk to NPCGuy as the only solution for advancement. Let it be an option, but let me discover it naturally by some other method.
Things always feel so contrived. You want to move the plot forward? Well you have to do a bunch of really weird shit, without exception. You MUST talk to these monks and capture this dragon in this way. Period. Do these set pieces, which are usually not very good. Just throw that shit out, even people who love the games completely seem to agree. Replaying Fallout 4 got old because I knew I had to do X, Y and Z before I could advance the story. Just like I did last time. So I ended up ignoring it and wandering around, which was fairly fun for a while.
But Bethesda doesn’t deviate from the formula. Since Oblivion nothing has really changed in that respect and I guess as long as people are willing to put up with it, nothing will. It’s fine, I still mostly enjoy it, but I always feel like they miss such a big opportunity time and again to do something really special.
ElGuapo
3555
If you’re playing an open world RPG for the narrative experience you are doing it wrong. It’s the nature of the medium of videogames that the more freedom you give, the weaker the narrative.
Take Witcher 3. You can’t go around having conversations with every character and person in the game. You’ll never be able to do that. For all the praise people heaped on it, it worked exactly the same as every other videogame. The only time you got any kind of good narrative it was a scripted event with at most one or two outcomes.
Take the Red Baron. If you are playing a second play through it’s not like his wife and child don’t run away this time and you have a completely different experience. You get the same story, the same acting, the same lines delivered, the same escort missions and dialog, the exact same experience. There is nothing open world about that. It’s an on rails experience. How
could it not be?
To expect this great writing and emergent content is holding up Fallout 4 to a different standard than every other game. It’s the nature of the beast.
If anyone has a solution, the industry is all ears. Until then I find it a facetious and easily dismissed argument that Murbella, ShivaX and others are making. Point out any game that doesn’t do this, from GTA V to W3 to Diablo III to Demon’s Soul. It’s all the same balance of content created specifically for a stronger narrative vs complete freedom. Bioshock vs. Minecraft.
