How is fallout 4 different than your witcher 3 example?

I’m still going to be doing the same quests, with the same outcomes. Still going to be meeting the same people who say the same things.

The only difference is maybe you’ll see some random battles that aren’t important to anything act a little different.

I don’t know if i would say it is freedom vs quality. At this stage, i’d probably say it is quantity vs quality. If you’ve played Mass effect 3, that is the kind of freedom you’re talking about. The freedom to make 10 choices but have the game ignore your choice and do whatever it wants. There are pretty hilarious examples of this where you insult someone to their face and he just thanks you for supporting him.

Right now, in order to make the game world or npcs respond to players in a decent way, a human needs to specifically tell it to do that. Thus if you don’t have that stuff, nothing feels real. You have the choice to kill Bill the mayor in the outpost, but the game world doesn’t react to it. You have the choice to talk to Jill the Town Crier, but she doesn’t have anything to say beyond a canned line nobody cares about.

Different factions battling each other (IE emergent gameplay) is a nice bullet point, but it is not a genre defining thing, at least not at the level Bethesda does it. If you really want to talk about Emergent Gameplay focusing around faction battles, play Space Rangers 2. That is a game where it actually matters and factions actually fight each other for real and not just when they randomly bump heads. If fallout 4 had the Brotherhood of steel and super mutants trying to wage war against each other, taking over towns and destroying stuff, then i think we could talk about how Fallout 4 was all based around emergent gameplay.

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Except there are multiple paths to resolving the Red Baron, that often are the result of other things you do.

Every time you play FO4 you will go rescue Nick Diamond. Every time. The same way. No exceptions.

You can’t go having conversations with people in FO4 either, so I’m not sure why you bring it up for the Witcher 3. What you can do is solve nearly every quest in multiple ways. And there are shitloads of them and they’re all well acted and make sense.

I’m not sure how you can remotely go down this road and compare them when one is brilliant and doesn’t even remotely pretend to try. But whatever, we’re all wrong and Witcher 3 is just like Fallout 4, only worse in every way because randomly spawned mobs don’t fight each other as much, which is the pinnacle of human achievement in the year 2015.

Fallout 4 is the perfect game, we might as well just give up now because nothing will ever be better than it. Because El Guapo said so.

Seriously, it was a fun game, but pretending it was fucking flawless and perfect is bullshit and makes everything you keep saying the actual “facetious and easily dismissed argument” that you’re accusing others of for not being in awe of something they’ve seen at least 3 times already from the same game studio.

Nick Valentine, right? Or are you rescuing me?

LOL that’s awesome.

Well played, sir.

Maybe they could do it out of desire for selfimprovement ? I am not disputing that their games are successful. Of course they are, hype was insane, I myself bought every singe Bethesda game since Morrowind. But, and this is pleasant to see, Fallout 4 is actually their lowest rated game ever. And it won’t be winning many, if any, GOTY awards. This is great! Even if they sell millions upon millions, it might still serve as a bit of a wakeup call.

Don’t be so defensive. It is nice that you enjoy it. I enjoyed it too (and also paid full price on release). But would you enjoy it less, if it was better ? If the RPG system was improved instead of regressed, if the story was better written, if the dialogue system wasn’t butchered? Or would you enjoy it more ?

You are acting as if New Vegas didn’t exist. The stuff that gets the most criticism in F4 is stuff that could be easily improved if Bethesda cared and hired people capable of it.

Im not interested in a better story. I just want a bigger world, and more excellent world building, and more to explore and find and explore - just like in skyrim, and the incredible places like the abandoned Lighthouse.

ShivaX, Paul, Murbella, etc. seem to be posting stuff I agree with (Razgon also makes a good point, I don’t really care if the story is good, I DO however care that my decisions and how I played the game meant something). Especially Paul’s point about this hopefully being just a bit of a “wake up” call that Bethesda will have to start phoning this stuff in. You really should want something you put 4 or 5 years into to turn out just amazing, and not mere, “a solid effort” like Fallout 4 feels like. In a lot of ways, in fact, I feel like Fallout 4 is a step backwards, because New Vegas was such a fantastic Fallout experience.

Fallout 4 is a cool action/RPG/shooter. It’s not a very good Fallout game, though.

Fallout 4 is an awesome Far Cry 2.5.

215 hours, baby. Haters just gonna hate.

Given how it sold, they’ll probably maintain their current writing skill/effort (whichever of the two is the issue) that’s been their norm for the last decade or so.

EDIT:
Also…to bring up emergence again - to me, the definition of emergent behavior must involve AIs setting their own goals (somehow) and then choosing a method (somehow) to enact said goal. This is what happens in Dwarf Fortress. While the player is defining what is to be done, the AI dwarfs are choosing when/how/what/in what order they’re going to do in any given instance. Or say CK2’s AI actors for perhaps another example?

Bethesda have actually been backing away from “emergent” behavior in their NPCs. Do we all remember the (in)famous Oblivion E3 demo of the NPC setting their dog on fire because it got pissed off at it? That’s (attempted) emergent behavior. The NPC had a goal, was interrupted, and they choose a method of enacting that goal, however silly.

It seems that a design intent of Oblivion initially was to have a functioning NPC economy with food/pay/sleep/etc. This was pared way back in the released game to only haveNPCs required to obtain food of their own accord. And if the player happens to have removed all the unowned food in a town…mass chaos emerges as the AIs attempt to fulfill their goal of finding food by stealing what’s left.

That’s emergent behavior - AI systems trying to solve a problem and interacting with each other. None of those ideas survived into FO3 or Skryim, where NPCs are static schedules or randomly spawned encounters that happen to have spawned close to another hostile encounter. Of course, what was left of the system in Oblivion added basically nothing to the game, so not exactly a heavy loss.

And obviously these types of systems seem crazy hard to get right.

Sure. Still a shame, though.

This article. Holy shit how anyone can have this level of patience is mindblowing to me:

The biggest hurdle of all, however, has to be the part of Fallout 4 where the player has to kill a character known as Kellogg, the player’s arch-nemesis. Hinckley has to come up with a way to finish the game without personally killing the game’s main villain, absurdly enough.

Hinckley, miraculously, still works through it. He does so by luring Kellogg into a series of mines—not to kill Kellogg, but rather, to get his health down enough. Once past a certain threshold, however, Kellogg will start trying to heal himself (the bastard!). To stop that, Hinckley pops a cryo mine, a weapon that freezes enemies in place. This, in turn, gives the other enemies in the room, which Hinckley has brainwashed to fight for him, a chance to kill Kellogg where he stands. What you have to understand here is, the chances of pulling his off without a hitch—getting all the characters in the right place, having the pacify/incite mechanics pop without fail, and then having the AI successfully kill someone despite their terrible pathing and bad aim—is extremely difficult. The fight took five hours. Five entire hours.

“THANK FUCK,” Hinckley exclaims at the end of the ordeal. “What a shit show,” he proclaims.

“I’d love to ask [Todd Howard why pacifism is so difficult in this Fallout,” Hinckley told me in an interview.

“I’m a little disappointed in the lack of diplomatic solutions in this game, it’s a lonely departure from the rest of the Fallout series,” Hinckley said. “My version of pacifism isn’t really diplomatic, it’s more exploitative of the game mechanics to achieve a zero-kill record. In other [Fallout] games, you had a lot of alternatives for bypassing the combat, whether it was with sneaking, speech checks, or a back door opened with lockpicking and hacking. In fact, in previous games (at least 3 and NV), your companion kills didn’t count towards your record either.”

Hinckley says that he felt sad when he found out how much Fallout 4 focused on combat—it made him feel like the developers forgot about about players like him, who have stuck with the series for a long time. In a way, Hinckley saw his no-kill playthrough as a way of showing the world that he refuses to be forgotten.

Sometimes, though, forcing a no-kill playthrough makes Fallout 4 lose its shit. There’s a quest in Fallout 4 where the player must save a companion, Nick Valentine, from a vault. Nick Valentine goes into the vault searching for a missing dame, only to find out she had actually run off with a mobster type, Skinny Malone. At the end of this level, the player has a confrontation with both Malone and the dame. You have a few options. You can attack everyone. You can convince the damsel to turn on her lover. Or, you can convince the damsel to leave without having to hurt anybody.

In a no-kill playthrough, the last option seems like the most one to pick, right? As Hinckley progresses through his playthrough, though, it becomes obvious that the game literally doesn’t know how to deal with a player who pacifies everyone into submission. So, he starts experiencing weird audio problems related to that peaceful mechanic. More notably, though, when he convinces the dame to leave, the game bizarrely spawns an enemy where it shouldn’t, and this forces the peaceful encounter to become violent once more. Normally, this wrinkle can be dealt with fine—Hinckley can simply pacify the characters again. The problem is, after calming everyone down, the game borks itself. Characters won’t continue their dialogue like they’re supposed to at that point. Nick Valentine refuses to actually leave the vault, even if there’s nothing stopping him from doing so. Hinckley becomes so desperate after this happens, he tries to physically push Nick out of the vault by force. It doesn’t work.

I just…wow.

Sounds about right. Like I said, a cool action/RPG/shooter; mot a very good Fallout game.

The last bit is definitely a glitch. I chose the last option and I was able to leave the Vault without killing anyone on the way out with no issues.

Of course, I killed about a hundred people on the way in…

Fuck that passivism stuff. Also, for a game that depends so much on scripts, it’s amazing how often the scripts just work this time around.

“The deadliest weapon in the world is a Vault Dweller and his rifle. It is your killer instinct which must be harnessed if you expect to survive in combat. Your rifle is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills. If your killer instincts are not clean and strong, you will hesitate at the moment of truth. You will not kill. You will become dead Vault Dwellers. And then you will be in a world of shit.

Woman and I got a laugh out of the hacking minigame tonight. She said, “Well at least it’s realistic now.”

Amen.

Would be happy if they just drop the main story/narrative arc altogether. Go all in at this point.

Or alternate between a narrative-heavy Obsidian style release then an exploration-heavy open world Bethesda release. Sort of how they did but farther to each end of the spectrum…please all folks.

-Todd

15 hours in. Objectively better than FO3. What is up with you guys playing for over 100 hours and hating on the game. Jesus.

15 hours in. Definitively better than FO3 (no Vegas for me, blame Tom). I have no words for people playing this for over 100 hours and outright hating on this gem.

Of course this one behaves emergent. So many great Moments. Comparisons with darf fortress, give me a break.

Bugs. Aplenty. Of course, this is Beth with their below average staff count and notorious lack for polish. Nothing serious though (PS4), probably the most stable work we got from them.

Less blahblah and better gameplay is definitively a win. I like the new dialogue and perk systems, albeit they streamlined hard. Hard. But we got legendaries, meaningful power armor use, crafting, building, better looking, LEGENDARIES.

Oh and legendaries.

15 hours in. Definitively better than FO3 (no Vegas for me, blame Tom). I have no words for people playing this for over 100 hours and outright hating on this gem.

Of course this one behaves emergent. So many great Moments. Comparisons with darf fortress, give me a break.

Bugs. Aplenty. Of course, this is Beth with their below average staff count and notorious lack for polish. Nothing serious though (PS4), probably the most stable work we got from them.

Less blahblah and better gameplay is definitively a win. I like the new dialogue and perk systems, albeit they streamlined hard. Hard. But we got legendaries, meaningful power armor use, crafting, building, better looting, LEGENDARIES.

Oh and legendaries.