3596

That’s… one interpretation.

3597

Add talented animators to that list, and I agree. But I like that they improve one thing at a time in each iteration. In Oblivion they vastly improved the melee combat over Morrowind because of gamepad support (which PC players didn’t until Skyrim, unfortunately), and in Skyrim they made the game much more balanced for far longer where the hardest difficulty was a challenge for much much longer than in previous iterations. Fallout 4 really did vastly improve the shooting and (IMHO) the leveling/perk system. Now for their next one they need to either improve the writing or the animations.

3598

I’d argue that bethesda didnt touch the crappy, bland melee combat in elder scrolls until skyrim, which was a pretty large improvement to the combat. It nearly brought the level to what mod users were seeing in previous games (in admittedly buggy combat overhaul mods). I don’t really blame bethesda for this that much though. It is true they could have made a token effort before skyrim, but it is really hard to do first person melee combat well and only a few games (jedi knight, dark messiah of might and magic, shadow warrior) pull it off in my humble opinion. Even with the changes in skyrim, it is not one of them.

Melee combat in fallout 4 is still ultra bland and boring though. You can tell there were zero fucks given by the crappy weapon choices (even by fallout 4 standards), with few weapon modification choices (even by fallout 4 standards) and buggy/imbalanced perks (even by fallout 4 standards). You can’t even target body locations with melee, an iconic feature of the fallout series.

3599

It is kind of surprising that among all of those fans of fallout 4, none of them visit metacritic. Even you have to admit that there are a TON of VERY opinionated bethesda fans.

Also, i suppose this means you think other games experiencing similar gaps between critic score and user score are also a victim of internet haters? Classics such as watch dogs, Spore and Kane & lynch. I do want to be clear that i don’t think Fallout 4 is anywhere near as bad as those games, but you have to be crazy to think user reviews dont matter and only professional critics, who sometimes have conflicts of interest, matter.

I can’t believe that for every crazy reviewer giving fallout 4 a 1/10, there isn’t another giving it a 10/10.

3600

While semi off topic, i’d just like to say that when new vegas came out, i watched people complain about the same exact engine related bugs that were present in fallout 3. They didn’t seem to notice them when developer = bethesda, but once that changed…

And really, fallout 4 is a lot buggier than i remember fallout 3 being, which is disappointing. Bethesda has also been extremely slow to fix problems.

3601

That’s one interpretation :)

3602

I don’t feel that is true. Everyone I know has commented on how much less buggier the game is. I just has my first crash last night after over 100 hours with the game. Fallout 3 crashed on me all the time - relatively speaking.

3603

Even you have to admit that there are a ton of Bethesda haters when it comes to Fallout :) And we know that people with negative opinions are more motivated to say something that those with positive opinions.

Also, i suppose this means you think other games experiencing similar gaps between critic score and user score are also a victim of internet haters? Classics such as watch dogs, Spore and Kane & lynch. I do want to be clear that i don’t think Fallout 4 is anywhere near as bad as those games, but you have to be crazy to think user reviews dont matter and only professional critics, who sometimes have conflicts of interest, matter.

Every case is unique and it is a mistake to generalize. Watchdogs sole well and a sequel is planned. The other two did not and no sequels are planned.

I can’t believe that for every crazy reviewer giving fallout 4 a 1/10, there isn’t another giving it a 10/10.

Ones inability to believe something does not make it false :) And yet you ignore Fallout 4’s sales success and seem unable to explain that. If Fallout 4 is so bad, if the user Metacritic scores are so bad, why is it selling so well? What does this say about the influence and worth of user scores on Metacritic that you believe are so important?

I’ll also note that the Steam score is 81%, the same as Fallout 3. This, along with the critic’s reviews suggest an issue with the user Metacritic score, since it is an outlier.

3604

I’d take crashes over bugged/nonworking perks or broken mechanics any day. Unfortunately FO4 is plagued with the latter.

3605

Fallout 4’s initial sales are not an indication of the quality of Fallout 4, but the previous titles. Basically unless Fallout 4 was super buggy it was going to sell well. The question is, how well will Fallout 4 sell in the long run after people got a real taste and understanding of the game? I think the initial sales of the next fallout game will be more of an indication of how well fallout 4 will be remembered. However, people do not have that long term of a memory and if its another 5 years until the next game, they may forget much of the travesty that fallout 4 is. And once again I will just say Fallout 4 is a fine game in its own right, it is just a terrible fallout game. My bit a vitriol is mostly based on the fact that Fallout 4 could have been so much better than it was.

3606

The only bug I encountered in FO4 was companions stuck in the downed state. It happened twice in 100+ hours of play. You fix it by shooting them in the head (seriously). As for crashes, the game was rock-solid. That was surprising, as this is a Bethesa product played at release!

There are mechanics and perks that do not work as expected or suffer balance issues. Some features (e.g., settlement attacks and defenses) are woefully underdeveloped. I do not label those issues as ‘bugs.’ Also, they will likely be addressed by mods. I give Bethesda partial credit for those fixes due to their long-standing support for the modding community.

3607

The stats are interesting. In one hand, Fallout 4 sold almost 70% more than Skyrim at release. In the other hand, in 9 weeks Skyrim fell from 287k concurrent players on Steam to ~100K players, and in the same 9 weeks F4 went from 471K players to 105K, so proportionally Skyrim had a better retention, at least % wise. It can be seen too as the hardcore group of fans, the ones who are playing for a few months at least, is the same, with Fallout 4 attracting them and in addition more casual players.

3608

I’ve repeated this point often enough to be annoying, but here I go again: It will be better. The GECK is coming. Bethesda has traditionally been great at supporting modders (though that one foray into paid mods was worrisome, if happily short-lived), and I think they deserve credit for that.

The fine folks at Silverlock already have a working F4 Script Extender up, and Nexus has the NMM working with the game (I presume Mod Organizer is up to speed, too, though I have not checked). Those are two of the three items needed, the third one being the GECK. Once that comes out, we’ll see an explosion of awesome.

Or perhaps we won’t. You’re spot-on about the initial sales being largely due to the past games, combined with a pretty good marketing campaign. If the public and the best modders abandon the game, then it will wither. I’m pretty optimistic, though :)

3609

You cannot mod in roleplaying and c&c. Voice acting is too big of an anchor in this case and it’s dragging the whole thing down. More or less predetermined storyline doesn’t leave much wiggle room either. At best we’ll get some proper gameplay enhancements on the level of PN/FWE/Requiem but that will only make the game a better survival sim/shooter, not a better RPG.

3610

That depends entirely on your definition of RPG, doesn’t it? I’m not disagreeing with you in general, because you’re correct, you can’t really change the things you want changed, via mods. I just find the current game’s definition of role-playing game to be adequate. This seems to be the crux of the issue, and the reason some feel the game is a terrible Fallout game while others are ok with it.

Role-playing game means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. To me, coming of gaming age in the seventies, an RPG is D&D style combat heavy, loot heavy, progression heavy gameplay. I’ve never given much thought to the choices, personal narratives, stories, or dialog in any RPG, paper and pencil or digital. Call my superficial, but there it is–I always played characters in PnP games based around their ass-kicking skills, not their ass-licking skills. I hated RPG sessions where the game master indulged in lengthy exposition and we had to spend hours chatting about our feelings. I liked the sessions where we spent all the time on a grid map with miniatures whaling away with swords. The same applies in computer games–if it has loot, progression, exploration of new areas (and hence, new foes and new loot), I’m generally good with it being called an RPG.

I’m fully aware that for a lot of people, the stuff that’s not important to me is very important, and I can definitely see how Fallout 4 would fall woefully short in those areas. It does, however, hit near the bullseye for me.

3611

You might have a look at some of the more popular Skyrim mods :) Some of them contain excellent voice acting (though this is the biggest constraint). Some of them introduce whole new storylines and massive new zones. Most of them ignore the main storyline, as do many players.

You are vastly underestimating what people can do with this engine, based on what people have already done in past games ;) The GECK and the Script Extender are really powerful tools.

EDIT: On reflection, your reference to Requiem, FWE, etc indicates you’re familiar with the Skyrim mod scene. This is probably an issue of defining “RPG,” as Wombat describes, and the degree of freedom required for someone to call a game a “true RPG.” That’s a long-running, complex and unwinnable internet debate ;)

3612

No, I should’ve been more specific - you can add RPG elements and c&c ON TOP of what already exists, but it’s very very hard to mod the existing content in this respect to a satisfactory degree (ie, you can add branching dialogue and adjust the quest scripts but it’s going to be jarring as some of the lines will be voice acted and some won’t). I know what Falskjaar does for example, or someguy’s bounty quests for FNV - excellent work all around and I applaud the authors for their efforts, but if you asked me if I can name a single mod on this scale that touches up the main content I’d be drawing a blank. And like it or not, this main content will always be in the game, at some point you will interact with it and be reminded of the lost potential (if you’re looking for a particular aspect of roleplaying, that is).

3613

I know people put a lot of stock in mods making the game better, but I don’t.

First, I hate screwing with mod orders and the inevitable glitches that the more complicated mods bring with them. I used a few mods with Skyrim, but I tend to stick with the ones that are nothing more complicated than simple Steam Workshop stuff. (For example, the mod that added markers to the map for the Stones of Barenziah.) These games are glitchy enough without me adding a bunch of mods that foul up scripting. Every time I tried the “bigger” mods that depended on interrelated assets, script extenders, and heavy downloads, the game went to buggy shit.

Second, Bateau’s got it right on the voicework and writing. It’s the rare mods that add voicework, rarer still for the voicework to be good. The way Fallout 4 is set up, it’s going to depend on either good voicework or good writing. “Bethesda quality” isn’t going to cut it on the writing side because that’s my complaint now.

Finally, based on how long it takes for good mods to be created, I’ll have long moved on from Fallout 4 by the time they come out in stable form.

3614

I finally used mods on NV long after I went through the game “vanilla.” I did the same on Skyrim, except for the UI mod that IMO was pretty much necessary. Most mods, I agree with Telefrog–too much hassle and potential for weirdness for me. I usually limit myself to minor graphic and interface stuff.

3615

Well, when the good mods are released it will be too late for me. I don’t replay Bethesda games, and I already played Fallout 4.