Oh? I thought they finally fixed that issue on 360 for you.

It was probably posted here already, but JE Sawyer is formspringing one neverending inteview where he even answered one of my questions.There is plenty of talk about weapons and balancing and all that too.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer

There are such insightful Q&As like:

Q:lol you played fallout 3 but yet you suck big balls at trying to replicate it with new vegas.

A:hmm yes yes keen insight

:D

Well, I wasn’t… and that seems to be the root of the problem, see below.

How do you square that with maxle’s account of beating end bosses with a basic minigun while my plasma caster hardly did any damage? You say shotguns ought to be very powerful – how comes they were so weak in my game? And what about the people who found varmint rifles awesome versus those who found them useless? You give a good explanation of the weapon mechanics, but I think it’s become clear by now that differences between weapons or weapon types are not the issue here.

And let’s not focus on those end bosses either. I do think it’s nice that Obsidian thoughtfully provided high-speech alternatives for the end game battles, and if only those battles was impossible for my high-speech character that wouldn’t be remarkable. But I was really using those battles only as an illustration for an overall strangely terrible experience with the game’s combat system, in most encounters throughout the game, with any of the dozens of weapons I tried. At first I thought my weapons didn’t make a dent because I just had the wrong weapons, but that was subsequently proved wrong.

So I can only assume the true reason is that I didn’t put points into guns & energy at every level, like Miramon did. Apparently there’s some magic hidden threshold in these stats, probably related to player character level, that you must meet or else all your guns will turn to crap. I started with low weapon stats and let them lag behind, only occasionally putting a few points in them. I thought about 50 by end game should be okay if I played carefully, used VATS and kept buffs around. (I ended up with 60 in guns & energy; I originally wrote 80 but that was an error, I had 80+ only in non-combat skills.)

Well, seems that I had at least 20 fewer weapon skill points at any given time than the game expected me to have, and so I fell below some magic threshold that triggered a huge reduction in weapon effectiveness. That’s my theory at this point anyway, as nothing else seems to account for the widely different experiences reported here.

Lets see.

Energy weapons were a bit weak pre-patch. Exactly, they had problems with armored enemies. Post patch, some energy weapons have a higher dps and every energy weapon (by class) have a bonus DT (-5,-10-,15, i think).

I suppose your problems were using these weapons were pre-patch.

Shotguns are powerful against the correct type of enemies, with the correct perks. And of course with distance. Of course, there are weak initial shotguns, and powerful shotguns.
Shotguns are special in that they change A LOT depending of the type of ammo used. It’s not the same buckshot and slugs. With buckshot they are high dps weapons, with low rate of fire. With slugs, they are armor piercing weapons, and he used slugs against the boss and you are thinking on the normal ammunition. It’s a world of difference.

I suspect the people are saying the Varmint rifle was good in the early game were using the scope (i didn’t try for that weapon, because i changed for others before i had access to scopes) and using a lot the critical headshots. Maybe that weapon is very good with crits in head.

No, I was only playing post-patch.

This is why I like fist weapons… they kick ass, you don’t have to worry about ammo types, and once you find a Power Fist, you’re set for the rest of the game. Deathclaws will still give you trouble, but only because they attack in packs.

Quite possibly that’s true; makes plenty of sense. I can think of lots of other RPGs (mostly JRPGS) in which skill level sort of secretly adds to damage. A pity that’s not documented if it’s true.

So I guess the question is, why didn’t you spend points on combat skills? It’s pretty obvious after the first few minutes of the game that there’s going to be a lot of combat in NV, isn’t it? Spending a little on combat skills is not minimaxing, that’s just the obvious thing to do, right? I mean, if you’d played through the game, liked it, and wanted a challenge, I can see some obsessive player trying to play with no combat skill at all, but it seems a bit odd as an initial strategy.

The listed weapon damage in your PIP Boy takes into account skill level. The difference between 0 skill and 100 skill is double damage with that weapon type. So, assuming a weapon that does 100 damage at 100 skill, you’re doing only 80 damage at 60 skill.

That’s a big deal against an armored target because the damage difference between 60 skill and 100 skill will now be more than just 20%.

Skill also affects accuracy, which of course, can affect damage actually dealt.

I don’t understand why you’re fighting the end boss of a relatively long game with less than maxed skill in your weapon of choice. That’s like going in and hoping to talk your way through with 60 speech.

Basically, it sounds like you went for some jack-of-all-trades type build and are now wondering why you weren’t effective.

EDIT: also, the plasma caster is a fair energy weapon, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t match Maxle’s choice of a minigun with AP rounds (this is key) for taking on high-level, armored targets.

Chris- Every weapon has a minimum strength/skill. The Plasma Caster, for example, requires 100 in energy weapons for optimum use.

That’s a good point. One i already had forgotten!

Let’s see… plasma caster is a end-game weapon that needs Strength 8 and Energy 100. With less, you have accuracy and damage penalties.

His minigun had armor piercing rounds. There aren’t enough of them in the game to make regular use of this weapon with these rounds (at least from my impressions), but there’s plenty for this encounter.

By using AP rounds, which negate a great deal of this target’s high DT, and outputting a lot of lead, anything goes down eventually. But here’s what the crucial difference was between your character and his. He seems to have had the required strength for his minigun (a stat clearly visible) and the required skill level for the weapon (also a clearly visible stat). Without both, the weapon loses much of its damage and accuracy.

As for the Shotguns, with slug ammo they no longer spread damage all over the place, allowing you to concentrate it on a single weak point (head). Paired with a a perk that negates 10 DT (Shotgun Surgeon) makes them incredible weapons. They only suffer at range, having much lower accuracy than rifles, but in that last area range isn’t much of a concern.

And it’s not just the mid game shotgun. All shotguns were useful from the start. When meeting the (low) strength and skill requirements, you needed to get close and unload into the enemy’s head. Everything went down with one-two shots. Even using buckshot ammo (Shotgun Surgeon affects each individual slug). After you get/craft slugs it’s one shot kills to the head.

Varmint Rifle was awesome at the start, but only for sniping (with scope and without, actually). It wasn’t that useful in close up engagements.
But at range, sneak critical hits on a target completely unaware of your existence meant one shot kills on such foes as power gangers or viper gangers, rad scorpions, etc. The key was always to aim for the unarmored head and to fire undetected. Eventually you dropped the Varmint Rifle and picked up better stuff. And no, I never put a single point into sneak.

There’s also the reality that a Minigun’s projectiles are pretty much instant hit, which, despite the spread, makes it still useful outside of VATS. Not so much with the plasma weapons, which are very slow and hard to hit with outside of VATS. Yours was a plasma weapon. In my first play-through, with energy weapons, I dropped them fast and picked up a modded Laser Rifle, followed by a Trilaser Rifle. With most of my shots being made outside of VATS.

But as Virgil pointed out, the difference in weapons likely wasn’t actually your biggest problem:

Yep, this is key. Not only does it do less than optimal damage at below required skill, but below required strength it’s also very inaccurate.

Damn, now I’m going to have to go back and see if I was using the Cowboy Repeater for that Deathclaws or I’m just misremembering. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Now where did that come from? I already said that I did spend points on combat skills, just not fast enough to satisfy the game’s hidden weapon balancing parameters. Ending the game with 50-60 points is perfectly respectable for any other skill that you don’t want to specialize in. You can pass most challenges, and 55+ points lets you pass “Hard” checks for lockpicking, speech, or hacking if you have skill books with the double bonus perk. Weapon skills are the only exception to that rule. Excuse me if I didn’t psychically guess that weapon skills need twice as many points as other skills to be moderately useful.

Wow, thanks for finally letting us know. I was aware of the strength requirement (never a problem for me, I had STR 8) but I don’t recall seeing a minimum skill requirement shown anywhere in the game. Falling below a weapon’s skill threshold certainly doesn’t prevent you from equipping a weapon, nor gives any warning whatsoever. Was this information somewhere in the game and I just missed it?

Both requirements (skill, strength) are displayed on the row right above the weapon damage in the PIP Boy.

No kidding? Okay, I totally blanked on that. I studied every weapon’s per-shot damage, DPS, ammo type, clip size, you name it – but I absolutely never noticed the skill requirement. Mea culpa.

I read all this fucking nonsense and my desire for 50% of the human race to die from cancer of the ass just swells.

Oh well, it just seemed pretty clear to me from the outset that NV was a game with a lot of combat, so naturally I wanted to get my skill up to the maximum for the one thing that seemed most central to the game. Spending 1/3 of my skill points on it didn’t seem like a big sacrifice. Of course I also have Speech 100, Lockpicking 100, Repair 100, and Science 100 at level 21 or whatever it is I am now.

Combat skills are not the only skill type that requires big numbers. There’s some really good things hidden behind skill 100 safes and terminals. You encounter high skill requirement safes very early in the game as I recall. Some other random checks also require very high statistics. Sure, maybe you only need a 90 or whatever to open the hardest safe with skill magazines, but that’s still quite a way away from a 55.

Still, while I think the min stat and skill requirements for weapons were made clear in the game, I agree they didn’t make it at all clear that skill is also affecting damage directly; I could only guess that was the case. But naturally I wanted to get high hit odds for the head region shots in VATS, and it’s obvious that skill affects those numbers.

I actually went through the game having never put a single point in a combat skill till nearly the end of the game. Aside from having a hell of a time with Deathclaws and Cazadores and a slightly rough time with Supermutants, I didn’t really have much of a problem. I just didn’t use VATS much at all.

I still think “it’s easy, I found it on a wiki” is everything that’s wrong with gaming!

I can see this two ways.

Yes, games should be able to convey everything you need to know (game mechanics, quest locations, etc) with their stellar UI, great in game knowledge bank and awesome quest tracking and so on. You shouldn’t have to guess what the developers were thinking, it should be either a) obvious, or b) obvious where to find out about it or at the least, c) moderately obvious at some point.

That said, things like the Fallout wiki exist not just because the game is complicated, but because people like documenting and sorting through big complex games. If all games were Diablo, we wouldn’t need Fallout Wikis, and that would suck.

So I can agree in theory that “check the wiki!” is probably not a great rallying cry for your game, it’s not all bad. A good, complex game can keep you coming back for multiple replays and finding new things.

TL;DR - game mechanics should be made obvious, but complex games aren’t all bad.