Ferguson St Louis - Michael Brown shot by police

[Dave_Markell]

Indeed. The images of officers perched atop armored cars pointing machine guns and rifles at peaceful protesters are indelible. There were dozens. Here’s just one:

They look like an occupying army, not police.

[Timex]

Timex, I disagree. I think I explained it in another thread, but equipment has a very big influence in how you train. If you have an APC, you train to use it, and that means a certain amount of police nuance is lost. You don’t even disembark from an APC the same way you would an SUV/car. Little things like that add up and it’s easy to fall into a military peacekeeping mindset which is very different from a police “protect and serve” way of thinking.

I can see the merit in this.

[Telefrog]

To clear, it not the heart of the matter and reducing the equipment won’t magically solve the problems, but I do think it exacerbates an already shitty relationship in many communities.

[rowe33]

What’s the current status of the ‘every cop wears a camera’ plan? Is that just not going to happen?

[Timex]

What’s the current status of the ‘every cop wears a camera’ plan? Is that just not going to happen?

It’ll happen eventually, I think.

Part of the issue though with this kind of thing is that a lot of police departments simply don’t have the funding right now. Someone would have to foot the bill, and while not crazy expensive, it’s still money that small police departments do not have.

[CraigM]

Perhaps they could get the funding from their APC budget.

[Telefrog]

The price for the refurb military equipment was a pittance. In most cases, it was the transportation cost from the military base to the police department.

That’s why so many jurisdictions wound up with APCs, IFVs, and MRAPS. Why not take it for a couple thousand bucks a pop?

[Timex]

The price for the refurb military equipment was a pittance. In most cases, it was the transportation cost from the military base to the police department.

That’s why so many jurisdictions wound up with APCs, IFVs, and MRAPS. Why not take it for a couple thousand bucks a pop?

Yeah, this was the main reason why these cops ended up buying this stuff… because it was basically free. In many cases, it was cheaper than buying lower quality equipment on the regular market.

Like, you need a new SWAT van… you can either buy an unarmored vehicle for $50k, or you can get an armored personnel carrier for $1000 from the army. It was a no-brainer.

This is part of the problem though, too… in that there is this idea that cops were actually buying all this crazy military stuff at wholesale prices, and thus wasting tons of money. Those are your FEDERAL tax dollars being wasted, not your local tax dollars!

[Menzo]

This is part of the problem though, too… in that there is this idea that cops were actually buying all this crazy military stuff at wholesale prices, and thus wasting tons of money. Those are your FEDERAL tax dollars being wasted, not your local tax dollars!

LOL, actually both. Federal tax dollars bought the thing in the first place, then local tax dollars buy it AGAIN.

As for body cameras, maybe they can take the money from the “police illegal use of force litigation settlement” fund.

[Murbella]

I’m not much of a military expert at all, but do they use the same grenade launchers to fire tear gas? If not, then i don’t think i’ve ever heard of the police using grenade launchers.

Most of the stuff sounds kind of dumb. Obviously cops shouldn’t have bayonets (and i haven’t heard of any that do?) and army camo in a city seems kind of dumb.

I do think cops should be able to have armored vehicles though, as long as they don’t have heavy weapons on them. These are for the cops’ protection. Especially when you have mobs of people out for blood and feeling like they are invulnerable.

Other than APCs, this kind of sounds like a political move by the administration sadly. They may as well prohibit police from buying star destroyers.

The idea that cops in camo and driving apcs cause people to riot is still childish. Be an adult and take responsibility for your actions (especially if you feel they are justified). Don’t use moronic arguments about how if police don’t prepare to counter a riot, they are responsible and if they do, they are responsible.

[Razgon]

There was a rather famous experiment some years ago, theStanford Prison experiment, that I have always though should be heeded more, especially in these police vs the people situations.

The results of the experiment favor situational attribution of behavior rather than dispositional attribution (a result caused by internal characteristics). In other words, it seemed that the situation, rather than their individual personalities, caused the participants’ behavior. Under this interpretation, the results are compatible with the results of the Milgram experiment, in which ordinary people fulfilled orders to administer what appeared to be agonizing and dangerous electric shocks to a confederate of the experimenter.

As Telefrog mentioned, this means to me, that if you dress people up as military and arm them likewise, you’ll get these kind of results. It may also be why for the longest time the Bobby’s of England had the right idea in how they dressed and were armed.

I don’t think the solution is to disarm police , since we don’t have that kind of society anywhere anymore, but I do think they need to change somewhere - uniforms, training, equipment - all the little things that may add up.

[Pyperkub]

There was a rather famous experiment some years ago, theStanford Prison experiment, that I have always though should be heeded more, especially in these police vs the people situations.

As Telefrog mentioned, this means to me, that if you dress people up as military and arm them likewise, you’ll get these kind of results. It may also be why for the longest time the Bobby’s of England had the right idea in how they dressed and were armed.

I don’t think the solution is to disarm police , since we don’t have that kind of society anywhere anymore, but I do think they need to change somewhere - uniforms, training, equipment - all the little things that may add up.

I noticed a bunch of Texas police in camo during the Waco footage this week. Why do police need camo outfits? Is it so that you’ll never be able to find a police officer when you need one?

Or is it so they’ll feel like the military they want to be?

[rhinohelix]

There was a rather famous experiment some years ago, theStanford Prison experiment, that I have always though should be heeded more, especially in these police vs the people situations.

As Telefrog mentioned, this means to me, that if you dress people up as military and arm them likewise, you’ll get these kind of results. It may also be why for the longest time the Bobby’s of England had the right idea in how they dressed and were armed.

I don’t think the solution is to disarm police , since we don’t have that kind of society anywhere anymore, but I do think they need to change somewhere - uniforms, training, equipment - all the little things that may add up.

I don’t have time to do the linking but you should revisit more contemporary scholarship on both Zimbardo’s Stanford Prison Experiment and Milgram’s “Obedience to Authority” experiments: Both have serious design, reporting, and conclusion issues.

[Alstein]

Video Of Fort Bliss Soldier Shows Moments Before His Death While In Custody

Another one making the rounds- black NCO gets a DUI (damn stupid- military does not tolerate DUI), gets 2-days in jail. Ends up dead under very questionable circumstances.

This one’s interesting because military NCO is about the most sympathetic you can get whites towards a minority, though it isn’t bulletproof.

[legowarrior]

Saw Zimbardo a few years back at a conference. Interesting guy, but I would take his research with a grain of salt.

Personally, what I dont like is how our government is giving away this stuff. Surely we can get a better price on this surplus on the open market. Make a little back on our investment?

[Alstein]

Who would be buying this on the open market who wouldn’t use it improperly?

[Razgon]

Danmark for instance? Half my gear in 1999 was USA surplus military equipment, right down to Garant rifles and our Basics.
He’ll, our bridges was from USA aa well.

[Menzo]

Personally, what I dont like is how our government is giving away this stuff. Surely we can get a better price on this surplus on the open market. Make a little back on our investment?

I don’t have any real information, but I would assume they do this already. But let’s not forget that our military spending is as much as the rest of the world combined, so there’s only so many people who want grenade launchers and armored transports.

[Miramon]

I don’t have any real information, but I would assume they do this already. But let’s not forget that our military spending is as much as the rest of the world combined, so there’s only so many people who want grenade launchers and armored transports.

I bet Congress has to approve foreign sales and that military resales of used equipment aren’t high on their priorities list, because that makes little money for their masters, I mean, for the defense companies that donate to their PACs. Much better to force the government to buy useless new stuff or to send new export-grade equipment overseas instead.

[Telefrog]

The grand jury has indicted all six officers arrested for Freddie Gray’s death.