1721

I’ve seen the full video multiple times, and I’m as genuinely puzzled by your interpretation as you are mine :) I’m also paraphrasing what the prosecutor said. His version of events is more or less like this:

  • Cop initiates contact
  • Victim starts car
  • Cop shoots victim and falls over backwards
  • Car rolls forward

There’s no ‘scuffle.’ Per Deters, "“Some people want to believe Mr. DuBose did something violent toward the officer,” Deters said. “He did not. He did not at all.”

The video itself is not clear in some places, particularly the part where the cop falls down. The prosecutor claims to have watched it many times in slow motion. That fact is definitely affecting how I interpret it – where it’s unclear, I’m assuming he has access to a more information, or at least the same information in a better format.

The fact that multiple cops absolutely fabricated a story afterward also affects how I interpret the events. They’re not trustworthy.

Finally, for those wondering why Dubose ran, he evidently had some marijuana and $2,900 in cash in the car.

1722

I wouldn’t necessarily go so far as to say the cop fabricated a story. The story he told doesn’t line up with objective facts from the video, but that doesn’t mean he’s deliberately lying. Stressful events do crazy shit to your memory, especially the order of things. I can easily believe the office honestly remembers the car moving before he fired the shot even though that’s not the case. This is why cameras are so vital. They don’t care whether the officer is lying or just remembering poorly or is completely and totally accurate. They allow objective verification of the story all the same. They’re not perfect, either, of course, as not everything is always in view, there may be missing context, etc, etc, but they hugely improve the odds. That’s exactly what’s happening here, and that’s a very, very good thing.

1723

There’s no ‘scuffle.’ Per Deters, "“Some people want to believe Mr. DuBose did something violent toward the officer,” Deters said. “He did not. He did not at all.”

At 1:57 in the video, they are struggling with each other in the car.

This isn’t to say that DuBose did something violent. It means that they’re struggling with each other.

  • Cop shoots victim and falls over backwards

You say this like the falling over was just caused by nothing. What do you think knocked him over, the kick from his pistol?

  • Car rolls forward

No, the car DROVE forward, under the power of its engine which you can hear quite clearly. It drove a block and slammed into a telephone pole. And when you see how far it drove in a matter of only a second or two, that means it was moving pretty fast.

Also, based on the video, it’s really not clear whether or not the car was moving BEFORE the shot was fired. You definitely hear the engine rev, so you know the car is going. Since it took off, we know that it must have been in gear before the shot was fired, since DuBose couldn’t have put it in gear AFTER the fact.

That fact would suggest that the car was almost certainly moving before the shot was fired, which could have even led to the gun going off.

It seems pretty obvious that the reason the cop was knocked over, is because the car took off, and his left arm was in the car at the time. As the car was moving, he would have either been knocked over by the car hitting his arm, or by him jumping back to avoid getting run over by it.

It’s difficult to see exactly what happens, because all of this takes place over the course of 2-3 seconds, and because they are struggling with each other in the car, the camera is bouncing all over the place.

The fact that multiple cops absolutely fabricated a story afterward also affects how I interpret the events.

I’m not really seeing how you can tell with certainty that they fabricated any part of the story. Again, this isn’t to say that there was a justified use of deadly force, but in terms of the actual statements made, they certainly could have happened based on that footage.

  1. There was a scuffle between the cop and DuBose, instigated by the cop when he reached into the car to try and stop DuBose from starting it.
  2. The cop certainly could have felt he was “dragged” by the car, as it seems to have knocked him over when it took off down the street.

These parts don’t seem to be fabricated at all, based on the content of that video.

1724

Timex is doing a great job presenting the defense attorney’s case. All you need is to sew doubt. Doesn’t matter what the reality is, just keep saying stuff that might, maybe, possibly be true if you think about it hard enough. Find some jurors who will give the cops the benefit of the doubt (i.e. most of them) and your client walks.

1725

I think this is a situation where people with different expectations will inevitably reach different conclusions, based on a video that moves too fast to be clear. However, the trial will certainly involve a frame-by-frame breakdown. If the version currently put out by the prosecutor is correct, the cop is in trouble.

I do wonder whether a jury could still consider it manslaughter, but I don’t know much (anything) about Ohio’s criminal code.

1726

Yeah, I think the murder charge might have been political theater. It would be REALLY be hard to prove premeditation with that footage.

1727

When I look at the Ohio criminal code, this looks a lot more like “reckless homicide” than murder, but the local prosecutor would obviously have a better handle on it. They may also allow conviction on lesser offenses.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903

1728

I think that to some large degree, the prosecutor wanted to avoid the crap from Ferguson, so he just came out and hammered the cop.

But on some level, whatever. That’s fine. He’s the prosecutor, so he can be as agressive as he wants. He’s not going to ultimately judge guilt or innocence. It’s better for him, as the prosecutor, to err on the side of caution here and go for the trial.

I think this is a situation where people with different expectations will inevitably reach different conclusions, based on a video that moves too fast to be clear.

Yeah, to clarify what I’m saying, I’m not certain exactly what happened in that video. However, there are certain things which do happen, and other things which clearly do not.

The cop clearly struggled with the guy in the car.
The car clearly took off down the road at a reasonably high speed.

My big issue with how a lot of this is being portrayed, is the some folks in the media seem to be intentionally misrepresenting the contents of the video in order to make political hay. In many cases, people are citing the statement by the prosecution as fact.

I mean, let’s be really clear here: The prosecutor saying that a guy did something does not actually make it so.

It seems like the fiasco with ferguson may have made us kind of forget that the prosecutor isn’t the friend of the defendant. It’s not like, “Oh, well if HE says he did it, then it must be so!” No way… if the prosecutor in pretty much every case thinks the defendant is guilty. Sometimes he is, and sometimes he isn’t. That’s why we have a trial.

1729

Not really arguing so much as stating I think calling it a mistake is a gross understatement. As for the license plate issue, it’s all relative. I live next to a county that doesn’t have enough sheriffs or police as it is. I would be pretty unhappy to hear they were screwing around with stopping people for not turning on their signals, or a missing license plate when we have had timing issues with them getting to locations of known crime. But hey, if the cops over there are looking for something to do, then good for them.

1730

Well, to be fair though, in this particular case pulling the guy over for the license plate was probably the right move. If the guy was carrying a huge amount of cash, and drugs, then maybe something was up?

1731

I don’t see anything wrong with the initial stop, either. If you’re missing a license plate, you may attract police attention.

1732

That’s really weird to me. I’ve been in the Bay Area without a front plate for 8 years now and haven’t ever even been asked about it, much less given a ticket for it. That includes after being pulled over for speeding (oops). I gather how patient the police are with that varies widely from city to city, though.

1733

How is that possible? California law requires front and rear plates. Are you registering your car in another state? But if you’re living in California, you’re supposed to register it there. If you did, they would have sent you front and rear plates.

1734

Laws in my state also require you to signal before making a turn… only an asshole for a cop would actually ticket you for it. Sure it’s in the books. It’s a law right up there with speeding. Technically one mile over you can get a ticket, but most cops just don’t do that even if they could. There’s usually something else they’re noticing than trying to get you for some very minor offense.

1735

No, I’m more on how is it possible that they sent him a front and rear license plate and he hasn’t added the front?

1736

The car’s been registered in California the whole time. They gave me two. I just never put the front plate on. There’s no bracket for it on my car, and if I attach it where the tow-hook goes, it blocks the intake for the cooler in the front.

Anyways, only point relevant to this thread is that there’s a lot of variance in whether no front plate will get you pulled over all on its own. At least when you’re a middle aged white guy in a nice car.

1737

I guess because of all this stuff in this thread we now have a new civil rights march going ahead?

US civil rights march sets out from historic Selma:

Civil rights campaigners in the US have begun a 40-day march to highlight what they say is a fresh attack on equal rights for African Americans.

They set out from Selma, Alabama - the starting point 50 years ago for a march in support of watershed legislation enabling black people to vote.

Activists say a 2013 Supreme Court decision has allowed some states to reverse some of that progress.

They hope thousands will join a final rally in Washington DC in September.

America’s Journey for Justice will take an 860-mile (1,385 km) route passing through Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina and Virginia.

Organisers say the outcry triggered by the recent police killings, including the shooting of a black teenager in Ferguson, Missouri, needs to be channelled into a long-term commitment to bring about change, Reuters reports.

“We can continue to be serially outraged, or we can engage in an outrageously patriotic demonstration with a commitment to bringing about reform in this country,” said Cornell William Brooks, leader of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

Marchers sang as they crossed the Edmund Pettus bridge, where state troopers beat activists protesting about the death of a black man at the hands of a white police officer in March 1965.

That event, and a follow-up march from Selma to Montgomery led by Martin Luther King helped build momentum for Congress’ approval of the Voting Rights Act that removed all barriers preventing African-Americans from registering as voters.

In March, President Barack Obama visited Selma to pay tribute to the original marchers.

He called them “heroes” and said that they had “given courage to millions”.

Despite progress, he said, the fight against racism was not over.

“This nation’s long racial history still casts its long shadow upon us. We know the march is not yet over, the race is not yet won,” the president said.

He also condemned new attempts by state governments to restrict voting rights.

1738

Seems to be me the question is - “why are you pointing the gun at someone who is just trying to drive away?” and then build a murder or manslaughter case around that.

1739

I’d be VERY surprised if they get murder. Manslaughter from the reckless gunpointing, and perhaps obstruction for the “drag” report, but that’s it.

Even the manslaughter is going to be tough: cop could have gone with “I thought I was going to be dragged” (based on the contact with the driver), rather than going with the clearly false “I was dragged”. I still believe what I said above: the cop panicked. He didn’t set out to kill the driver.

1740

Another tragic reminder that cops do have legitimate reasons for being catious, even during minor traffic stops: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/02/us/memphis-officer-killed-traffic-stop/index.html. Third officer death in four years for Memphis. That’s higher than what I would have expected.