1741

It’s tragic any time there is an unnecessary death, police officer or the one they pulled over, but excessive force… police are still not expected to shoot first and ask questions later.

1742

There are influential people who believe you have this backwards:

Simply put, it’s putting a high value on the officer’s life, and little to no value on the life of the citizen.

1743

I understand the position, but what is the unarmed individual supposed to do. Let’s just say since the general consensus here is the officer is perfectly fine and valid in pulling over someone for not signaling. I have arguments against that, but let’s assume that’s the position; the police officer is fine to pull the individual over. So now you have someone in a car pulled over for a very minor offense. Their hand is in their pocket, for a variety of reasons, some of them could be valid like that’s where the driver’s license is. The officer asks him to remove his hand from his pocket, he gets shot for complying. He’d probably get shot for not complying… what is this person supposed to do to wind up not dying… aside from you know never getting pulled over in the first place?

1744

Well, the actual answer is to put both hands on the wheel, then warn the officer before doing anything else with them.

Also, be white.

1745

This.

Also, be white.

And sadly, too much of this.

Personally, I lean towards panic and overreaction in this case. I think he was legitimately afraid of getting dragged and it was a real possibility, but that was a situation of his own making that he should have avoided. Basically he put himself into a scenario he shouldn’t have and as a result got in over his head and someone got killed. On the other side of the coin - don’t try to run from the police when they’re leaning/reaching in your car, because odds are you’ll get shot for it. Cars are just as deadly as any other weapon when used as one.

So basically everyone involved fucked up and now lives are ruined or ended.

1746

We all know this not necessary for most people. Almost no one does this, no one.

Also, be white.

And even though we know almost no one places their hand on the steering wheel waiting for further instructions, minority men seem to be the only ones being killed for not doing it. I think there’s an issue there, an assumption of guilt for only one portion of population.

1747

I do (the couple times I’ve been pulled over for speeding). I remember being told that in driver’s ed, 20+ years ago. I’m not sure how you’re so certain that this isn’t common behavior, much less nonexistent behavior.

Note that the driver in this particular scenario went much further than just not putting his hands on the steering wheel. He didn’t deserve to die for it, but I don’t think the cop had the intention to kill (or even harm him), when the cop pulled him over. The actions that led to the driver’s death happened in about 5-10 seconds of time. I don’t even see anything in this particular scenario that establishes racial bias. Other situations, perhaps, but I wouldn’t go off and try to apply it to every instance a black man is pulled over.

As I said above, a tragedy for all, and possibly something that needs to be punished (cops certainly need more training for situations like this), but it’s not as terribly one-sided as you seem to be arguing.

1748

The reason I don’t think it’s happening very often is due to the number of dash cams and body cams that show me this isn’t happening. I understand that’s not a random sampling, but we’re not hearing about other groups being killed are we. And of course it’s one side, one side is dead. It’s not like this happening in a vacuum. It’s not even the only case of the problem in a month.

1749

That’s a ridiculous, and meaningless, answer.

As to your sampling, unless you’re watching a sampling of all dash/body cams, it’s skewed well beyond not being a random sampling. You’re most likely watching videos from incidents that are newsworthy, which would hugely be skewed towards non-typical police encounters.

If you turn every situation into a claim of incontrovertable proof of a problem, regardless of the facts, you’re actually undermining attempts to address the problem.

1750

It’s not ridiculous. This guy was going to be killed by the police officer the moment he told him to take his hands of his pocket because the officer was not going to accept any response he gave. He was dead before the trigger was pulled. He couldn’t comply. He would comply, no matter what the officer was likely to shoot him. The only response I’ve seen here is he shouldn’t have put his hand in his pocket… well it’s too late. Mistake made. I don’t think that a person putting their hand in their pocket should be an auto capital offensive.

As for how people behave when they pull over, if you have data that says the majority of people place their hands on the steering wheel and wait for an officer to approach and provide instructions before moving, I’d be more than willing to see it. TO clarify, I am referring to a specific age group. I think 50+ are doing it and probably teen drivers, but this middle group, 20s, early 30s… I am not so sure. My experience with that group is a lot of authority issues.

1751

For years the trend has been away from “preserve and protect” to “CYA.” For a lot of understandable reasons, police officers have felt under siege and threatened, and the idea that they are there to put their lives on the line for the common citizenry gets to be a tougher and tougher sell. What’s happened now is that the priority of the police is too often staying safe (themselves, personally) first, and their job (policing) second. It’s sort of what happens in the military when force protection becomes the overriding goal, at the expense of the mission. Only in this case, the common American citizenry ends up taking the brunt of it rather than the common Afghani.

I don’t know what the solution is. There are people out there who will, and do, shoot cops, because the shooter is on the lam, or hates cops, or is disturbed, or whatever. There are cops who seem to be totally out of control. There are far more cops who are simply trying to balance their job and safety, and are getting often times contradictory or muddled training and instruction, and are often thrust into really no-win situations. I also fear that there may be people who are panicking and feeling that, if they are pulled over, they’re going to be shot no matter what they do, and thus are primed to do violence to the police out of what they feel is a form of pre-emptive self defense. Which of course heightens the tensions and makes police feel even more threatened. It’s a nasty circle.

Add in institutionalized, widespread racism, institutionalized, widespread distrust of law enforcement, and institutionalized, widespread corruption, inefficiency, and incompetence in many municipalities, and it doesn’t seem like there are any good answers.

1752

I don’t think you and I are aren’t watching the same video.

The driver also attempted to stop the officer from opening the door and he also turned the key. He may also have have started moving the car, though that isn’t as clear as his other actions. He shouldn’t have died for it, but there’s more going on here than hands in pockets.

Again, his death shouldn’t have happened based on his actions, but there’s no reason to believe the cop had it out for the guy the minute he saw his hands in his pockets.

1753

You’re the one who made the claim that nobody does it. I’m not going to go around hunting for data to disprove your claim, that’s not how it works. I was agreeing with Oghier that it is the advisable thing to do.

1754

The key here is he should not have been killed for his actions. His actions were not ordinary. I don’t why he was trying to open the door and drive away. I’ve never tried to drive away while an officer is talking to me. I also don’t sit in the car wondering if some cop is going to kill me if i make a wrong move either.

As for the emphasis on the pocket. It’s because the officer is giving him a command but has no intention of allow him to comply. There was nothing this driver could have done to stop from being shot at that point based on what I am seeing. There dozens opportunities to avoid the situation entirely by the cop and the deceased prior to that, but when the office voices his demand, you would assume listening would prevent violence. It doesn’t look the officer intended to wait for a response to his demand.

1755

I shouldn’t have said nobody, should never use absolutes like that in argument. My apologies. But I don’t think it is as rare as you think it is, the DUI group alone could probably account for that, and they don’t get shot for fumbling all over the place during a stop.

1756

Did you watch the whole video? The cop’s demands were due to the driver giving conflicting information about whether he had his license with him or not. That behavior was unusual and suspicious, to the cop. I think the officer did listen: that’s why he was confused (and alarmed) by what he was being told.

And I agree with you—there were dozens of opportunities for both parties to avoid the conclusion. The death wasn’t just about an officer deciding to kill a man because he had his hands in his pocket. The cop is the one that took the fatal action—but both parties had a hand in the events leading to that act. The driver isn’t to blame for his own death, but he did play a part.

1757

That’s not true. I do it whenever I am stopped and I’m a middle aged white guy. Everything I read says to do this, this is generally known as the best thing to do. To say no one is doing it is just wrong. As for videos, I watch some too, and I see videos that drivers have shot where they do this and also tell officers what they are going to do if they move their hands. This is just pretty common knowledge.

1758

I never even said it was rare. I don’t know what the breakdown is nor did I claim to know. I do know it is 1) the advisable thing to do and 2) that at least somebody (me) does it.

1759

FWIW, hands on the wheel and tell the officer what you’re going to do before you do it was pretty solidly drilled into me during driver’s ed back in the late 90’s. I’ve never been pulled over, but that’s absolutely what I would do in that case.

1760

Yeah i watched the whole video. Like I said, the driver’s behavior was resistant but not threatening. The officer didn’t look like he was following standard procedure either. I know you think it’s ridiculous, but two people making a mistake, one winds up dead. I hold cops to a higher standard than everyday citizens, nor do I expect ordinary citizens to be faultless in order to avoid being killed by said cops.