One of the main reasons I haven’t really considered a flat-panel display is because of the low resolutions typically available, as well as concerns over ghosting effects when rendering rapidly changing/moving graphics. I think the latter concern is considerably reduced now, although still evident, but I noticed that there’s now some flat screens with 1600x1200 resolution.
Aside from price, is there anything about this Dell monitor? It seems pretty snazzy.
I prefer the Viewsonic VX2000. Cheaper, and even snazzier.
There’s a few 16ms 17" ones out; I’m happy with my new NEC 1760V.
Read this first:
http://www.dansdata.com/sm172t.htm
LCDs have improved substantially in the last three years, but it really depends how particular you are. Sounds like ghosting is the biggest issue for most people.
Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention: unless you run at the native panel resolution, the output will be a little blurred (image scaling to fit the LCD). Depending how high that resolution is, you may need an ultra-beefy video card and/or system. Most nicer panels are 1280x1024 or 1600x1200. Consider what kind of video card/system you would need to run those resolutions effectively.
There’s a big difference between 25ms and 16ms monitors. At 25ms the ghost trail for dragging a white mouse pointer across a black desktop is quite noticable, but it’s barely there at 16 ms.
My big problem is that I can’t find a 17 inch LCD monitor that will handle 1600x1200. 17" is a fine size, because it has pretty close to the same viewable size as my 19" CRT, but I don’t want to lower my desktop resolution, and there’s absolutely no way I can afford a larger LCD.
where can you actually find that spec - I don’t see anything in (ms)? Interesting info - thanks for the thoughts.
Wave an ordinary black-edged Windows mouse pointer around on a white background on the 172T and it won’t blur much at all. OK, maybe a weeny bit, but you’d have to be picky beyond human comprehension to be bothered by it.
Wave that same pointer around on a standard Windows blue backdrop, though, and suddenly it’s got a noticeable trail. And it’ll be a bit dim, too; that’s because the background is blurring onto the pointer, as well as the pointer blurring onto the background.
Similarly, if you smoothly scroll medium-brightness text on a medium-brightness background (like blue HTML links on a grey background, for instance), the text will blur vertically so it looks as if it’s boldface.
The reason for this is that whenever an LCD subpixel is called on to make a brightness change that’s smaller than a full on-to-off or off-to-on transition, it’ll take a lot longer to do it than it would for a full transition. The effect, on the 172T at least, is only noticeable between dark colours, when the pixels are close to fully powered on; a moving black thing on a grey background will blur, and vice versa, but you can wave pale grey things around on white backgrounds all you like and see no blur.
Focusing on fully white to fully black millisecond response times can be deceptive. I think it will depend, again, on how sensitive you personally are to this phenomenon.
Hmm. Do any current panels use the “feed foward” transistor overdrive method?
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,75440,00.asp
I can’t find much at all on this topic.
If you can’t find the spec, it’s probably so high it’ll make your eyes bleed.
the planar px171 or whatever is a nice, cheap 16ms lcd. 1280x1024, light, DVI, cost me like 400$ I think through dell w/ some coupons.
Nice match for lian li cases too, lightweight for lanning, good pivoting abilities for MAME shootemups. perfect monitor for me. (although I do run a 22 inch crt next to it for photoshop/painter/unrealed)
The cadillac of Faltscreen (LCD) monitors for gaming is the AG Neovo S19, 15ms refresh, 170-180 degree viewable. 300:1 contrast and brigtness ratios. Scratchproof glass filter over top of the LCD. Beautiful thing to behold in action.
Oh, amusing LCD story:
The day after I got this LCD, I noticed that a red pixel about 3/4 of the way across the diagonal would get stuck on. Incredibly annoying, and it seemed to happen more and more often over the next few days, until it became permanent.
Desperately searching google, I came across the solution of pushing down on that spot. Lo and behold, it worked; I had to do it a few times when it kept coming back, but it’s permanently fixed now.
Sufficiently advanced technology really is indistinguishable from magic.
I actually can’t find the spec on any of these - I’m just not sure where to look - response rate in milliseconds doesn’t seem to be something typically listed by vendors, or even hardware reviewers who don’t specifically mention games. they get very excited about the power consumption, however.
I prefer the Viewsonic VX2000. Cheaper, and even snazzier
Looks good – the price I linked to was in Cdn$, however – the U.S. price for the Dell 5200FP is $1100 (from Dell, cheaper from other retailers), so it’s cheaper than the Viewsonic (especially since you can get a package deal). I wsih I could find a response rate for it. Here’s a pretty crazy favourable review, although not from a gaming mag.
Desslock,
Sparky pointed out to me when I was agonizing over the LCD issue a few months back that, with Dell, you’ve got 30 days to send it back for a full refund.
So, keeping that in mind, I watched Techbargains for about two weeks, waiting for a good deal on the 2000FP. I eventually got it for USD$750 plus tax with free shipping, bringing be up to about USD$800 total.
There is some minor ghosting. I tend to notice it most when playing HL or CS and getting 80+ FPS on my GF4ti4400. The ghosting isn’t at all noticeable (to me) on BF1942 or any other game where I’m not getting crazy framerates. Furthermore, I’m using the regular VGA out. When using the fancy-schmancy DVI connector on my brother’s Radeon 9700, I noticed far less ghosting.
Also, as an added bonus, the 2000FP features svideo and composite video connectors, which has allowed me to move my xbox out of the living room and into the den/office (unfortunately, Halo looks like crap because of the lack of AA, but Brute Force actually looks pretty good and PGR looks amazing [despite being a crappy racing game]). It also would allow me to hook up a second computer to the monitor (if I didn’t already have a KVM switch, which, incidentally, might be making my ghosting worse than it already is).
Overall, I’m incredibly happy with the 2000FP. While it’s not quite perfect, it’s damn nice for the price. Just watch the bargains, since the list was $1049 + shipping +tax when I got it for $800.
asjunk
Caring about response time is a recent occurence; everyone just used to know that yes, you don’t use them for games or movies, but they’re great for text. If you can’t find the response time (call the manufacturer if you’re really desparate), then it’s probably in the 40+ range; entirely unacceptable for games.
There’s no reason to get an LCD that ghosts anymore, unless you just have to have something bigger than 19 inches.
I recently picked up a Planar PL191M 19"
http://www.planar.com/monitors/PL191M.asp
It’s got some great specs:
500:1
170 degree
25 ms response (15 rise, 10 fall)
15.4 lbs
dvi and vga (comes with all cables)
usb hub
speakers
pretty thin bezle
Picked one up from dell last week for $500 free shipping plus tax minus 2% ebates. Walkout was $530.
The good:
bad(or maybe unsure or not adjusted to):
Just a tip if you order from Dell small business instead of Home. In the fine print of Dell’s Total Satisfaction return policy it states:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/misc/policy_010_policy.htm#total_sat
New Hardware Products and Accessories: All new hardware, accessories, parts, and unopened software still in its sealed package, excluding the products listed below, may be returned within thirty days from the date on the packing slip or invoice. To return applications software or an operating system that has been installed by Dell, you must return the entire computer. A different return policy applies to nondefective products purchased through Dell’s Software and Peripherals division by customers of our Small and Medium Business divisions. Those products may be returned within thirty days from the date on the packing slip or invoice, but a fifteen percent (15%) restocking fee will be deducted from any refund or credit. The “Total Satisfaction” Return Policy and Software and Peripherals division return policy are not available for Dell|EMC storage products, EMC-branded products, or enterprise software.
If you order from small business and it is from Software and Peripherals there is a 15% restocking fee even if it is within 30 days of invoice. BUT when I did the online form to request for a return in the reply email they said they will waive the 15% restocking fee and give me a FULL refund. I didn’t even have to ask for it. I think that policy is just there to prevent return abuse.
In the end I’ve decided to return the monitor. Are there any 19" 16ms monitors in existence?
This part number Dan mentioned sounded like a 19" to me:
Doh I missed that post.
That thing runs over $1000!!!
There doesn’t seem to be that much information or reviews on the AG Neovo S19.
also take a look at this in the specs:
http://www.shentech.com/agnes19bco19.html
Response Time
15ms / 10ms (Typical)
Ummm I think that is 25ms total. Reporting just the rise and not including the fall is very misleading.
I saw the s19 showing a monsters Inc DVD as well as the PC splintercell demo. I dont know what their Clear Optic Filter thing is, but it is amazing. I didn’t notice any ghosting and the image quality was amazing. You could see the individual pores and bumps on mikes (they eyeball) skin. I have never seen any monitor so clear, ive never seen a CRT come even close to that thing. They have one at my local CompUSA that I go and drool at every now and then, even though it just has that darn aquarium screensaver running on it. :)
I freaked out the sales guy by taking out one of my keys and running it pretty hard across the face of the monitor, it didn’t even leave a scuff, nothing, nada. (good thing too, thinking in retrospect)