Timex
3228
Trump would just claim the illegal immigrants voted against him in the impeachment trial.
Sharpe
3229
Secret ballot is not viable, for many reasons. I mean, it’s a bad idea from all perspectives. From a political POV, it’s terrible (imagine if Trump were acquitted on secret ballot). From a historical perspective, have we ever had a major vote with national consequences like removing a President be secret, or even close to secret? (Keep in mind, a “voice vote” or “call for ayes” doesn’t count.)
Also, one of the major points of this process is not just to remove Trump but is also to show the rot and lawlessness of the GOP more generally. A secret ballot that goes against Trump would remove him in the short term but would do very little to hammer the GOP back in the long term and as horrible as Trump is, he’s a symptom, not the underlying pathology. The root problem in the US is the descent of the GOP into unreality, disregard for law and general political evil.
Lastly, secret ballot, REALLY?
Strollen
3230
You make good argument as usual. But I find it ten times more likely that, we could find 20 spineless Republican senators to vote for impeachment if the ballots were secret than open. I’m willing to give up a lot of principals to get Trump out of office sooner rather than later, and more importantly avoid the potential of having 4+ more years of Trump.
RichVR
3232
If it’s allowed then it can be used. Part of the process, no? And it’s Trump. Fuck him.
Tim_N
3233
Democratically, I agree that a secret ballot is problematic. In a robust democracy voters should get a secret ballot, but the elected representatives should be doing everything possible in public and on record. It’s just such a shame that 40%+ of your voting population are utterly insane.
In this case I would be in favour of a secret ballot, for much of the same reason that Dietrich Bonhoeffer felt it was ethically permissible to lie to his Nazi captors.
twitter slap fight vs Hugh Hewitt
I’ll write separately, @hughhewitt, about the Hunter Biden testimony.
Let’s stipulate for the sake of argument that Hunter Biden was part of something corrupt. That would not justify Trump withholding aid or insisting upon a public announcement aimed not at cleaning up corruption in Ukraine but at sullying Trump’s likely opponent. Everything about Rudy’s showboating and the emphasis on a public announcement suggests this. So too the president’s inability to point to any investigations of corruption he has asked for that do not involve Biden.
So the crux of the investigation is about what Trump was asking for and why, and that doesn’t change even if one assumes (as I do not) that Hunter Biden was guilty of something.
There is no mystery about Joe Biden’s actions to get the prosecutor in Ukraine fired, that was a widely shared international goal actually targeted at reducing corruption, and there’s no indication (indeed, there is evidence to the contrary) that it was to inhibit investigation into Hunter. So this is a side show.
The thing is, I doubt a secret ballot would convict Trump. If anything, it is more likely to acquit him, since Senators can wash their hands of the whole thing with no direct consequences. Don’t underestimate the possibility that the Republicans in the Senate have been with Trump all along because they largely agree with him.
Funny how every single person Trump hires (and especially his lawyers!) is rogue.
Why are we fooling ourselves with false hope? There is no way in hell, secret ballot or no, that Trump gets removed from office. Even the Democrats running the show know that the GOP controlled Senate is going to vote against impeachment, no matter what. It’s political suicide to remove your incumbent candidate from office in an election year. Do you think Mike Pence is going to bring the same votes that Trump does in November 2020? Mitt Romney? Ted Cruz?
So why are we doing this when we know how it is destined to end? Because by going through the process we force every Republican in the House and Senate to put their name together with a NO vote on impeachment in what is easily the most clear cut case of abuse of power, corruption and sheer incompetence in the history of American politics. We force these assholes to chain themselves to Trump, who will go down in history as a fucking joke, an incompetent and narcissistic buffoon who brought shame to the Office of the President and directly harmed America, Democracy and the rule of law. Their votes for Party over Country will be remembered at the voting booths, both in the Presidential election and in their own re-election races, and in the end the results will hopefully be a continuation of the blue wave of 2018 and 2019 and a resounding rejection of the current GOP identity of corruption, nationalism and oligarchy.
TL:DR - The realistic goal here isn’t impeachment, the GOP is too far gone for that, instead it’s to highlight just how far gone they are, and mobilize the other 70% of the country against them for years to come.
ShivaX
3240
I’d say the real goal is the utter destruction of the party at this point.
Anything less just delays the problem. They had a good run, but they need to join the Whigs and Federalist Parties in the footnotes of history. Everyone of worth already left the party. They claim people like Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk are luminaries. Nothing of value remains there.
Yes, exactly. This talk about ‘secret’ unhappiness with Trump and a desire to do something about it is the same sort of nonsense we have been hearing for three years. Republicans want to have their cake and eat it too, to both be supportive of Trump and get credit for secretly opposing him. Fuck them.
ShivaX
3242
Well, I have Washington Post live on a 2nd monitor for as long as I can stand it.
I suspect once Nunes/Jordan start their bullshit I may take a nap, which is what they’re probably counting on.
Also:
I don’t think anyone really is.
I can’t tell if Mr. Kent looks like he’s trying not to laugh a little bit.
