But he was (or could have been, if he’d bothered) fully briefed that there was an ongoing investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, a matter which our intelligence agencies considered of grave importance. His response was to fire the FBI director and then order White House counsel to dismiss the special prosecutor who carried on the investigation. Whether or not he colluded, this is indefensible behavior.

It’s indefensible. So is perjury.

But perjury by itself does not seem to be considered a good reason to remove a president by the public, and it’s reasonable for some Democrats to worry that their constituents would feel the same way about Trump’s obstruction.

Didn’t you know, Tom? The potential crime wasn’t proven to be an actual crime. Clearly there’s nothing to see here.

Investigations have consequences.

I’m a bit surprised you’re saying this. Where are you getting your information? Have you read the report? The Mueller report details Trump and his team colluding/collaborating with/enlisting the help of Russia. It furthermore details Trump’s direct and blatant attempts to interfere with the investigation of that collaboration. There is no imagination needed. It’s there in black-and-white, and calling it “underwhelming” because it didn’t send Trump to jail is exactly what the Republicans want you to do. I don’t mean to be patronizing, but seriously, read the report. Or even just take a few minutes to peruse this:

The reason Republicans can get people to call it underwhelming is because Mueller took to heart the Department of Justice lawyers legalese jujitsu about whether you can convict a sitting President of a crime. Mujeller bunted because he’s a good Boy Scout and not an attack dog. But please read what he reported before dismissing it as something that requires imagination or is no big deal.

-Tom

Fucking Mueller, man. Really, his fault was expecting our system of checks and balances to kick in. Seems like he hasn’t really been paying attention to that system falling apart around us.

-Tom

I mean one might argue that the same applies to people who only realized Republican voters are universally bad people only 3 short years ago ;-)

There are two separate issues. First, was there sufficient evidence to charge Trump with illegal coordination with Russia? The answer is no.

From the Mueller report:

Second, while the investigation identified numerous links between individuals with ties to the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign, the evidence was not sufficient to support criminal charges. Among other things, the evidence was not sufficient to charge any Campaign official as an unregistered agent of the Russian government or other Russian principal. And our evidence about the June 9, 2016 meeting and WikiLeaks’s releases of hacked materials was not sufficient to charge a criminal campaign-finance violation. Further, the evidence was not sufficient to charge that any member of the Trump Campaign conspired with representatives of the Russian government to interfere in the 2016 election.

Second, was there sufficient evidence to charge Trump with illegal obstruction of the Mueller investigation? The answer is yes, but Mueller notoriously declined to indict Trump because reasons.

I think that the Clinton investigation is a reasonable analogy. Ken Starr did not find sufficient evidence that Bill Clinton had committed crimes related to Whitewater, but did find that Bill Clinton had committed a crime in trying to impede the investigation (which admittedly spiraled way beyond Whitewater).

A crime is a crime, but for better or worse most people did not seem to think that obstructing Ken Starr merited removal from office. The same may be true of obstructing Robert Mueller.

I’m inclined to agree with you. One thing I struggle with is resolving this with people I have been friends with for a long time. One person, who I’ve never seen him treat anyone with anything other than kindness and compassion, buys into the Fox and Friends conspiracy stories and believes the democrats are bad, and underhanded. How do you resolve these things with people you know? I can really use some ideas.

You’re being disingenuous. The ONLY reason it wasn’t proven was because he obstructed their efforts to do a conclusive review of ALL of his potential crimes. Just in case you forgot, he pretty much threatened and/or fired every single person who was supposed to find the truth. Comparing that to Clinton’s situation is beyond ridiculous.

Clinton was impeached literally for obstruction of justice.

I’m sure it’s possible for a Democratic House Rep to explain to moderate constituents why obstruction of justice is ok for Bill Clinton, but obstruction of justice is not ok for Donald Trump. Because even though Bill Clinton and Donald Trump committed the same crime, they did it for different reasons.

But I would not look forward to making that argument. And frankly, it’s unnecessary. There are much better arguments for impeaching Trump that will result in the exact same outcome.

You do realize, trump committed a thousand other crimes in addition to obstruction of justice? He had already made a mockery of the emoluments clause and last I checked that is not supposed to be legal. This was supposed to be a gateway to get to the core of his corruption. Instead the investigations were decimated.

I’m sure Trump committed lots of other crimes, but (for now) the only ones that have official recognition are obstruction of justice and bribery.

I’m guessing that “view them as subhuman garbage and work tirelessly day in and day out to subvert their every action and belief, that they might not make the world a worse place by merely existing in it” would go too far for you, Rob, cuz you’re a nice fellow.

But I think it’s a solid starting point!

He’s repeatedly shat all over the emoluments clause in plain view, at the least.

The emoulements clause is probably impeachable, but technically not a crime.

And it’s still making its way through the courts. Do you want to wait for that to get settled or just move ahead with the bribery charge? (Yes, I know that the House doesn’t have to wait, but they will).

If Clinton had broken the emoluments clause as aggressively, as often, and with the “rub your ass on the Constitution” manner as Trump does, 100% he would have been removed from office.

I mean I’m all for dragging his dessicated ass up from whatever hell dungeon we store him in after the first set of convictions every time we want to have another show trial for him and another million or so Trumpists en route to a gulag somewhere.

@magnet, there is a meaningful difference between Clinton’s obstruction and Trump’s obstruction: Clinton’s wrongdoing occurred in a private lawsuit and did not involve his actions as President or any use of his Presidential powers, while Trump’s obstruction involved Trump directly using (and abusing) his Presidential powers to shield himself from investigations.

Federalist Paper #65 lays this out clearly:

“A well-constituted court for the trial of impeachments is an object not more to be desired than difficult to be obtained in a government wholly elective. The subjects of its jurisdiction are those offenses which proceed from the misconduct of public men, or, in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust.” (emphasis added)

Likewise, High Crimes and Misdemeanors is a well known legal term with centuries of history. Per Wikipedia:

"A high crime is one that can be done only by someone in a unique position of authority, which is political in character, who does things to circumvent justice. The phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors,” used together, was a common phrase when the U.S. Constitution was written and did not require any stringent or difficult criteria for determining guilt but meant the opposite. The phrase was historically used to cover a very broad range of crimes.

Since 1386, the English parliament had used the term “high crimes and misdemeanors” to describe one of the grounds to impeach officials of the crown. Officials accused of “high crimes and misdemeanors” were accused of offenses as varied as misappropriating government funds, appointing unfit subordinates, not prosecuting cases, not spending money allocated by Parliament, promoting themselves ahead of more deserving candidates, threatening a grand jury, disobeying an order from Parliament, arresting a man to keep him from running for Parliament, losing a ship by neglecting to moor it, helping “suppress petitions to the King to call a Parliament,” granting warrants without cause, and bribery."

There’s a real difference here. Specifically, Trump has abused his powers and his office, for his personal gain and to harm his personal/political enemies. That’s exactly the kind of thing the impeachment clause was enacted for. Clinton on the other hand, lied in a deposition in a private lawsuit, received a $70,000 civil fine by the Judge and lost his license to practice law. There was no evidence that Clinton abused the power of his office or used the office in a corrupt fashion, and that’s a meaningful difference.

In other words, this whole issue is not about violation of the law; it’s about violation of the duties of public office, abuse of power, corruption in public office, etc. And Trump is the poster boy.

Sometimes I wish I had your convictions Randy :-)