5230

And yet, the quotes I quoted (“We have reserved judgement on Mr. Trump for years now”). Sounds like maybe they spoke against him when he was a candidate, but then went quiet when he was president?

Edit: Also, from that Oct 2016 article:

This year’s presidential election in the United States presents Christian voters with an especially difficult choice.

The Democratic nominee has pursued unaccountable power through secrecy—most evidently in the form of an email server designed to shield her communications while in public service, but also in lavishly compensated speeches, whose transcripts she refuses to release, to some of the most powerful representatives of the world system. She exemplifies the path to power preferred by the global technocratic elite—rooted in a rigorous control of one’s image and calculated disregard for norms that restrain less powerful actors. Such concentration of power, which is meant to shield the powerful from the vulnerability of accountability, actually creates far greater vulnerabilities, putting both the leader and the community in greater danger.

But because several of the Democratic candidate’s policy positions are so manifestly incompatible with Christian reverence for the lives of the most vulnerable, and because her party is so demonstrably hostile to expressions of traditional Christian faith, there is plenty of critique and criticism of the Democratic candidate from Christians, including evangelical Christians.

In other words, “Yes, Trump is terrible, but her emails”.

5231

Yes, they are neither endorsing Trump nor Clinton. The strongest criticism is certainly aimed at Trump.

So what? Not every NeverTrumper will vote for Democrats.

5232

That makes a lot of sense.

5233

I guess I have to rehash the whole conversation? I said it was great they came around, but it was weird they were ever ok with Trump. Someone pointed out that they did say bad things about Trump in October 2016, and they did, but along with “but her emails”… basically saying “Trump is terrible, but you can’t vote for that woman.” And it sounds like they went quiet for three years after that. So… I still think it’s weird. Ok?

5234

But they were never ok with Trump. They described why at length, and then didn’t want to talk about him any more. Until now. Why is that weird?

You make it sound like they changed their opinion of him, but I don’t think they did.

As for Clinton, they didn’t like her either. I think it’s weird that you would expect them to rally to Clinton solely because they didn’t like Trump. Or that you interpret criticism of Clinton as somehow endorsing Trump.

5235

You read the whole thing right, like the part where they kind of act like the Democrats did something horrible by going after a crazy racist and sexist that is embodied in Trump. Seems like they were quasi okay to me since they even mention their wait and see approach right there in today’s piece.

5236

A large portion of the American Taliban evangelical base are already non-Christians.See their prosperity gospel etc. Supporting Trump is not a stretch.

5237

Yes, I read it. They mention Democrats once, and obviously they don’t trust Democrats. And they also criticized the impeachment procedure. That doesn’t mean they are ok with Trump or generally against impeachment.

They are almost certainly riding the “both sides are terrible” train.

5238

They mention Democrats more than once.

They mention Democrats going after Trump. They mention Democratic policies being incompatible with Christians while claiming at the top they didn’t want to be too partisan so they could welcome Christians from a variety of political spectrums. They talk about the nominee process and the e-mail server claims, both debunked; they mention getting paychecks for speeches… it’s a laundry list of things they don’t like about Democrats so they can get the courage to say oh yeah, Trump is bad.

It’s not once, and they were never partisan neutral.

5239

Democratic policies are far more aligned with Christian beliefs than Republican policies except for one issue.

5240

Let’s condemn them for not condemning Trump in the right way.

5241

Here’s what I never understood about Christian support of Trump. The argument was that God would control/guide him. If that was the case, God could do the same with any other person. In fact if that was the case God could do the same on their signature issue with anyone. So either it isn’t the case or God doesn’t care about it nearly as much as they do.

5242

I meant in the 2019 article, they only mention Democrats once. Plus they mention Bill Clinton. So twice. They didn’t like Bill either.

But the question was “Why were they OK with Trump?” The answer is that they weren’t OK with him. They are not required to choose between Trump and Democrats.

5243

Given a binary choice, it isn’t weird at all. Not rallying to one produces the other.

Morally? I think they probably are.

5244

I am condemning them for wanting their cake and eating it too. You cannot push people to do the right thing and admit they were wrong, when they can’t even do that. They are not leading by example, and that was the problem from the start. You don’t just talk about a Christian life, you lead by it, and they did not do that, and they are still not doing that.

That’s garbbly goo. You don’t back horrific people doing awful things in the hopes God will guide them to better. Think of all the dictators in the world people would back if that actually worked because hey, they have all the power, let’s just have God guide them to being not a murderer anymore… said almost no one.

In an election, you have to choose. They chose, and they chose… poorly.

5245

All I’m saying is, if you’re saying “hey, they hated him in 2016 too”, then I’m telling you that in the article you’re citing, about how much they dislike Trump, they felt the need to put in several paragraphs about how they also hate Clinton, and for manifestly stupider reasons.

(p.s. the Republican position on abortion is that they just want to make it illegal. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, you should invest in education, birth control, women’s health clinics, alleviating poverty for women, and generally making women less powerless in society. Making abortion illegal won’t actually help at all. So if you actually want to reduce abortions, you should not vote for Republicans. You should only vote for Republicans if you want to criminalize sexual behavior in women.)

I’m not a Christian and I don’t speak for Christians. I speak for myself, and I think it’s weird that people who call themselves Christians would ever think it’s ok to vote for Trump, or to make an equivalence between Trump’s admission of sexual assault (plus stealing from charities, and etc.) and Clinton using an email server.

5246

Christians have consistently rejected consequentialism.

So they can refuse to vote for Trump out of principle and also refuse to vote for Democrats out of principle. Whether this would produce a suboptimal outcome is irrelevant to them.

5247

They do this because they’re enabled to do that, and this is one of the groups that pushed that enabling. They’re trying to take a half-step back now, but it’s not enough.

Look at all the crap in here, Mueller report not enough, Democrats were out to get him, he didn’t get a chance at his side of the story, claiming they try to stay above the fray (this not even remotely true), heck they are even equating Clinton to Trump, as if the two are even remotely the same. But hey, I am sure a half-ass attempt like this will persuade almost no one.

And the person who wrote it… is retiring. A gutless retreat about as effective as the NPR guys who all fled and left a mess behind them.

5248

That sounds impressive! Not really true, but impressive!

As it would no doubt be to Jesus.

5249

Yes, he was known for always reminding everyone that the ends justify the means.