Fox News thread of fine journalism


I think this reflects the fact that as a practical matter, there’s no real ‘moderate’ conservatism. No base of voters, no advocates of any note, and no politicians. Not now, anyway.

Edit: And a system that judges that the WSJ is just barely to the right of neutral is deeply flawed.


By that chart, all actual news organizations have a left bias already, because Fox is in the propaganda bucket.

Arguably, Fox is the only thing preventing the center from shifting to the left, so that the current “skews liberal” becomes centrism.


Not really, no. The problem is this:
The entire country has shifted left. The definition of moderate in that chart does not reflect the enormous amount of potential voting base younger than 35, and their mindset on what we call call, “traditional liberal and conservative.”

We’re relying on some method to pick news organizations to be categorized in a bucket. But let’s say a huge number of people now consider abortion a choice, guns to be too unregulated, everyone should have cheap healthcare, global warming is human caused and needs to be addressed, etc. Now looking at those biases, everything skews left, but does it really? (I’m picking these arguments out of a hat, I’m of no certainty any of these are actually becoming more widely accepted, but rather I’m questioning a method to define liberal and conservative when the entire conservative base is shrinking in the first place.)


The difference is that one is partisan from the top down as a business model (for just that purpose? unknown) , while the other is left leaning from the ground up.




Also that chart doesn’t show that all other tv news is explicitly partisan left. In fact it shows all other news bends over backwards to stay neutral. Shit, CBS and PBS are on the right half of the chart.

So I’m calling BS @Timex. That chart does not show that without Fox all news would be liberal biased. It shows that without Fox all mainstream news would be painfully centrist.

NPR, ABC, CBS are all as centrist as you can get, several skewing slightly right (which for PBS is hilarious given the rights attack on their very existence). Even the ‘far left’ Washington Post and NYT are squarely in the neutral/ centrist bracket, skewing slightly left.

Fox News is the equivalent of Daily Kos. And does anybody take them seriously, and are they the influence makers for the left?

Also CNN being weak on analysis and original reporting is hilarious. Because, yeah, they suck donkey balls.


Consider for a moment that you may be viewing things through your own partisan perspective.

Like, MSNBC is mainstream… They are not centrist. They aren’t bad reporting, but they are partisan in how they choose to report the news.


You said there is no moderate conservative station.

There are plenty. We call them CBS and PBS.

MSNBC is partisan, no arguments. It is as far partisan as Liberal news gets, and it’s a damn sight less partisan than Fox.

My issue is that you regurgitated the ‘all other news is liberal’ meme, when your own chart refuted that very notion.


I think you’re mis-hearing what Craig is saying… and perhaps misrepresenting how the chart is constructed.

You (Timex) seem to think the graph is depicting a bell-curve taking all the data, running it through standard-ish equation and declaring that ABC falls at the exact center of the mean-average. If that were true, then removing Fox News from the data-set would actually shift all the providers that are currently to the left of the chart slightly to the right and the new mean-average would be AP or whatever.

But that’s not how the chart is constructed. According to the site it comes from, they take each organization as a separate entity, find between 35 and 2000 articles from that site, and have a team of four persons with debatably-diverse political views give each one a score. Based on the average of the scores FOR THAT SOURCE, they plop the graphic down in some quadrant somewhere.

So removing one source doesn’t actually have any effect on where the others sit in this distribution. Removing Fox wouldn’t make ABC or CBS any more or less “liberal” because they are scored in isolation.


PBS and CBS are not conservative televisions stations.
I honestly can’t even imagine how you could suggest that they are.

Of course not.

If you recall, this was stated because the claim was made “if you removed Fox, then the GOP would have lost elections.”

Well yeah, no duh. Because it would be removing the primary conservative voice from the national media stage, shifting the overall dialog to the left. Not because those stations would become more left than they are, but because there are already many more mainstream stations that are already left of center.

Even if Fox weren’t so propaganda based, its removal would likely have the same projected impact.


The same way you claim that the rest of the mainstream tv news is liberal.

Ie it isn’t.

These two give greater credence to GOP framing, and more scepticism to Dem ones. That doesn’t inherently make them conservative. It does make them, however, excessively aggressive in appearing neutral.

I mean we live in a world where calling Donald J Trump a liar will get you labeled as liberal. That will get people screaming bias. So that these sources are considered slightly right of center tells you had far they bend over backwards to not appear liberal.

Which means they report news in a neutral way, but from a rightward/ GOP chosen framing.

And really that’s my main irritation, the chart you posted should clearly and definitively kill any nothin that mainstream media is leftward biased. MSNBC isn’t (wasn’t? Don’t follow current ratings) in the same ballpark as the Fox, CBS, NBC’s, ABC’s of the world. And they don’t pretend to be other than they are. While fox pretends they are the true neutrals, and everyone else liberal biased.


Are you saying this as some kind of weird joke?
Like, you don’t think that MSNBC is liberal? What do you think they are?


How about reading what I’ve said.

I agree it is liberal and it does not pretend to present itself as otherwise.

But every single other TV news source is neutral, aggressively so. Except CNN who is just shit all around. Milquetoast and content free.

But Fox weighs down the Overton window so heavily. And also consider what it takes for a source to be rated neutral. The very act of reporting that the President is a liar will be considered an act of liberal bias, and so to be considered neutral they consistently accept the framing that conservative and GOP sources choose. See: Green New Deal, is it top socialist or is it literal demons coming to eat your soul?


trump’s unhinged CPAC speech earned the label ‘fiery’ from most mainstream outlets.

Meanwhile. … yeah what @CraigM just wrote:

The very act of reporting that the President is a liar will be considered an act of liberal bias, and so to be considered neutral they consistently accept the framing that conservative and GOP sources choose . See: Green New Deal, is it top socialist or is it literal demons coming to eat your soul?


Sorry, I wasn’t looking at that earlier post, and when you admitted MSNBC’s bias, I was supremely distracted by you claiming that PBS and CBS were conservative… which I still don’t understand. It looks like you said it, because they weren’t? I still don’t understand it at all.

So, if you remove Fox, then you have a bunch of neutral sources, and then also one mainstream source which you agree is partisan to the left.

Resulting overall media coverage which is left leaning, if you were to remove Fox.

Again, that’s the only point here… that there aren’t really any other mainstream TV news sources which lean to the right. There’s no “normal” conservative TV news. So the removal of Fox would naturally result in an overall left leaning bias… which of course would result in an advantage to democrats in elections.


Except for the hundreds of Sinclair-owned local stations forced to show conservative content.


I guess that’s fair.


Part of the issue is ‘overton window’ placement. If Argle Bargle Keep Out the Brown Hordes is ‘right’ then a more rational universe’s ‘centrist’ may look ‘left.’

Also, collapsing everything into a left/right axis creates all kinds of distortions, the most tragic and destructive of which, of course, is the utterly bizarre and preposterous definition of ‘keep earth habitable’ as a ‘left’ issue. That framing is keeping people’s rational functions hostage in a way that will probably result in millions of avoidable deaths.


Only if you pretend that e.g. the Wall Street Journal is neutral. Which is crazypants, really.