Fuck Copy Protection

[DaveC]

Gee, a little angry are we? Trading street cred? Well, I’ve been gaming since the TRS-80 days. Does that make me some kind of authority? No, of course not. Nor does it make you an authority.

Anyone can pull numbers out of their butts and extroplate from anecdotal evidence. I notice that you got all defensive after I questioned your basis and now you attacking my credibility because I work in the industry. Does working in games make me an apologist? No, but it gives me insight into what the process is and I guarantee that there are very few companies out there that intentionally screw over customers and those that do aren’t around long.

If you feel so strongly that the games industry is out to get you then just make the unltimate statement and stop buying games.

[Machfive]

You don’t seem to get it. Angry? Sure I am. There’s been too many games in recent memory that looked great, but I had to return because they didn’t wanna play nice and run on my system.

Defensive? I’ve got nothing to defend here. I’m not sitting on a 1000 person poll which holds relevance to the discussion. All I’ve got are theories based on logical conclusions. You, on the other hand, don’t have anything more to offer than, “Well, if this was a problem, someone would’ve done something about it by now.” You sound more out of the loop than I am.

I don’t believe that there’s some shadowy group of rich fat dudes sitting around in offices laughing about fucking people over. That would be ridiculous.

I’m saying that as an entity, as a collection or individuals working together to form a whole, the industry doesn’t recognize the problems that their copy protection schemes create, nor do they realize their ineffectiveness.

This isn’t going to change until everyone wakes up and sees the obviousness of it all. About the only thing that I think will do it is some sort of broad-based empirical study on the matter.

Get Gspy or Fileshack or some other high traffic site to put up the following poll:

1. Have you or anyone you know ever bought a game which didn’t run due to issues with the game’s copy protection scheme?

2. Has a copy-protection scheme ever prevented you from making a legitimate back-up copy, as is your right under fair use?

3. Have you ever returned a game, or stopped buying games from a company, due to their use of copy-protection schemes?

4. Have you ever returned a copy-protected game after you were unable to get it to work, and then pirated the game and ran it successfully?

Those 4 questions should be enough, but maybe there are a few I’m not thinking of.

The point is, I’m not in any position to look into this matter. As a member of the industry, one would think you are not only in a position to do it yourself or know who to tell, but that you’d be interested in knowing the results, seeing as how this has serious relevance to what you do.

But instead, we get this.

If you feel so strongly that the games industry is out to get you then just make the unltimate statement and stop buying games.

What did I say about the industry not giving a shit? Or would using yourself as an example count as anecdotal.

Pitiful.

[Stroker_Ace]

@DaveC

Gee, a little angry are we? Trading street cred? Well, I’ve been gaming since the TRS-80 days. Does that make me some kind of authority? No, of course not. Nor does it make you an authority.

…

Does working in games make me an apologist? No, but it gives me insight into what the process is and I guarantee that there are very few companies out there that intentionally screw over customers and those that do aren’t around long.

If you feel so strongly that the games industry is out to get you then just make the unltimate statement and stop buying games.

Dave…

I’m inclined to agree with the guy’s message, if not his delivery.

If he has been “rolling his own” computers since '96, then he is in the upper echelon of gamers when it comes to compatibility troubleshooting.

and i realize you’re not a complete apologist Dave, but how often do you find yourself admitting that a game company might have overstepped their boundaries?

not naming any names, but it starts to remind me of a certain guy’s love for nintendo

[Machfive]

Hopefully my message maintained some clarity despite the dose of vitriol. I don’t enjoy sounding like a whiney, bitchy dude, but hey - I am.

[DaveC]

@Stroker_Ace

not naming any names, but it starts to remind me of a certain guy’s love for nintendo

I am not blind to what goes on in the industry contrary to what some might think. I am just pointing out that the motives in question aren’t always what people assume they are. What did Heinlein say? Something like, “Don’t ascribe malice to what can be explained by stupidity”?

People in the industry make mistakes just like everyone else. The problem is one bad decision can affect thousands of users. Then it’s up to the powers that be to correct the mistake. Is copy protection a mistake? I don’t know for sure. Does it prevent casual piracy? Yes, it does. Does it prevent hardcore piracy, no. Does it ultimately cost more than it gains? The jury is still out on that one and no matter how many people on Qt3 say they have problems no one here can assume that they reflect the general gaming population. In fact most gamers are casual and not at all like the people that haunt web boards. Until someone has some hard numbers it’s all hand waving and guesstimates.

A lot of people here have said that publishers should remove copy protection since it gets cracked anyway. Well, if an insistent robber wants your stuff he’ll get in so why lock the door? Because locking the door prevents the casual B&E artist from getting in. It also causes a problem when your family forgets the door is lock and slams into it with full Big Gulp.

I am not saying that there aren’t better ways to protect games, but no one has come up with a cost effective way of doing it besides these encryption protection programs. I guess that’s one of the reasons Valve is trying to make Steam work. It’s an alternative that might be better than the current systems.

[Machfive]

I am not saying that there aren’t better ways to protect games, but no one has come up with a cost effective way of doing it besides these encryption protection programs.

Question: Where’s the proof this is cost-effective?

Frankly, I think publishers throw the schemes on because they’re under the delusion they work. I would like to see a serious study that weighs the cost of copy protection, tech support for pissed off users, and lost sales from people like me who return games that don’t work, against the money lost from people who let their friends copy their games.

My money’s on copy protection being a huge drain on the profitability of the industry.

[DaveC]

@Machfive

I am not saying that there aren’t better ways to protect games, but no one has come up with a cost effective way of doing it besides these encryption protection programs.

Question: Where’s the proof this is cost-effective?

Frankly, I think publishers throw the schemes on because they’re under the delusion they work. I would like to see a serious study that weighs the cost of copy protection, tech support for pissed off users, and lost sales from people like me who return games that don’t work, against the money lost from people who let their friends copy their games.

My money’s on copy protection being a huge drain on the profitability of the industry.

Hey, you could be right, but you or I don’t have numbers either way.

[Alan_Au]

Well, the sales numbers should eventually speak for themselves. I’m personally more than happy to let my wallet do the talking. Sorry you can’t return the game though. Might try trading it on one of the trading sites.

• Alan

[Machfive]

@Alan_Au

Well, the sales numbers should eventually speak for themselves. I’m personally more than happy to let my wallet do the talking. Sorry you can’t return the game though. Might try trading it on one of the trading sites.

• Alan

Oh, I only buy at EB, specifically because I don’t like getting stuck with a product that doesn’t function as intended.

That’s what I’m thinking though - It’s going to take one more generation of copy protection before the masses actually take notice and voting with their feet. It’s just a shame it’ll have to come to a backlash like it is with the music industry.

Dave, neither your or I have numbers. But as someone in the industry, you can talk to people and get them interested in knowing. Maybe some accountant will hear your words and go, “Hey, I should do a cost-benefit analysis,” and lo-and-behold, one of us is proven right.

At least then we’ll know. And like I said, I’ll bet even money copy protection does the industry far more harm than good.

[Moore]

“Don’t ascribe malice to what can be explained by stupidity”

So why can’t we return games to publishers? (You could with sierra, you may still be able to with them)

Why are they keeping the money of customers who cannot use their product due to publisher implemented decisions, nothing wrong done on the customers part - he WANTS to pay you. Either tell him no, you can’t buy it becuase it won’t work, or if you are going to let him blindly attempt to make it work - give him his money back if it doesn’t. HOW IS THAT NOT MALICE TO STEAL HIS $50?

If it is known they don’t work on some drives, where’s the big sticker on the box pointing that out?

Do any pubs actually do any testing on these protections or do they trust their safedisc sales rep’s brochure that much?

That is malice or stupidity so great it becomes virtually malice.

[mouselock]

[quote=“DaveC”]

@Machfive

I am not saying that there aren’t better ways to protect games, but no one has come up with a cost effective way of doing it besides these encryption protection programs.

Question: Where’s the proof this is cost-effective?

Frankly, I think publishers throw the schemes on because they’re under the delusion they work. I would like to see a serious study that weighs the cost of copy protection, tech support for pissed off users, and lost sales from people like me who return games that don’t work, against the money lost from people who let their friends copy their games.

My money’s on copy protection being a huge drain on the profitability of the industry.

Hey, you could be right, but you or I don’t have numbers either way.[/quote]

I think a lot of the anger and ill will comes from the fact that, in the absence of evidence, the path chosen is the one that’s hardest on the consumer.

I, personally, tire very quickly of wanting to sit down for a quick game of X and having to dig through my truly huge collection of CD’s (I’ve been buying games on CD-ROMS since the days of $200 1x drives) to try to find the key disc for whatever game I want to play. It’s only slightly more tolerable than trying to read dark brown codes off of a maroon background code wheel in a character set thought up by a masochistic Celt. At least when I had code wheels and books they took up relatively little space and were generally easy to tell apart (D&D gold box games aside - ugh!)

[Xaroc]

@Machfive

Dave, neither your or I have numbers. But as someone in the industry, you can talk to people and get them interested in knowing. Maybe some accountant will hear your words and go, “Hey, I should do a cost-benefit analysis,” and lo-and-behold, one of us is proven right.

At least then we’ll know. And like I said, I’ll bet even money copy protection does the industry far more harm than good.

The problem is unless you use realistic assumptions (a key to any economic modeling) you won’t get a decent answer. The industry to this point automatically assumes every single copy made would have been a sale at full MSRP which obviously is completely inaccurate. So if you get an economist who makes that kind of assumption then you will never get a realistic answer.

A real study would have to figure out a decent factor for number of copies, take into account foreign illegal sales, include the cost per disk of putting the copy protection on, the licensing fee for the copy protection, and determine the tech support man hours spent answering copy protection questions (I bet this is a big expense no one ever considers).

– Xaroc

[Lunch_of_Kong]

I think it’s ironic that Temple of Elemental Evil gets released with SecuROM copy protection just after the Neverwinter Nights 1.31 patch removes it.

[Machfive]

@mouselock

I, personally, tire very quickly of wanting to sit down for a quick game of X and having to dig through my truly huge collection of CD’s (I’ve been buying games on CD-ROMS since the days of $200 1x drives) to try to find the key disc for whatever game I want to play. It’s only slightly more tolerable than trying to read dark brown codes off of a maroon background code wheel in a character set thought up by a masochistic Celt. At least when I had code wheels and books they took up relatively little space and were generally easy to tell apart (D&D gold box games aside - ugh!)

I like you already. Welcome to Qt3.

@Xaroc

A real study would have to figure out a decent factor for number of copies, take into account foreign illegal sales, include the cost per disk of putting the copy protection on, the licensing fee for the copy protection, and determine the tech support man hours spent answering copy protection questions (I bet this is a big expense no one ever considers).

– Xaroc

It would also take into account a detailed survey on piracy and what the factors are that drive people to it. Given a sample of 10,000, and you’re likely to have 1 or 2 crackers, a couple hundred hardcore gamers, and the rest casual gamers.

I’d love to see a detailed study on that, factored into your detailed econonomic schematic.

So, are there any game companies that wanna try this out, or will you continue to err on the side of pissing off the end-user?

[AndrewMyers]

@Xaroc

A real study would have to figure out a decent factor for number of copies, take into account foreign illegal sales, include the cost per disk of putting the copy protection on, the licensing fee for the copy protection, and determine the tech support man hours spent answering copy protection questions (I bet this is a big expense no one ever considers)

I’d be floored if EA didn’t have a spreadsheet the size of my house somewhere that hits all this stuff in painful detail. The CFO’s gotta be doing SOMETHING to earn his $1.4M salary.

To you or I, it’s a frustrating game that we can’t install. To them, it’s maximizing the profits so that they can pull in an extra hundred million or two. Who do you think’s put more thought into this – the SPSS-wielding finance wonks, or you? (rhetorical question, of course. This is a web forum, after all. Forum posters are always experts)

Compare to the auto industry – it’s well known that they’ll stop and figure the likely costs from wrongful-death lawsuits before they’ll issue a safety recall. If it’ll cost too much to fix, well, you just gotta let some people get killed. It’s all for the profits, baby!

Mind you, the auto guys miss the mark from time to time – cf. Firestone. Similarly, could well be that ToEE is having a vastly higher Xaroc factor than they expected. (Xaroc factor == the “#&@!monkey#&@!balls@#&!*(securerom#&!#*bastards#&!#and your mother, too, you miserable #&@!” effect)

[AndrewMyers]

@Xaroc

A real study would have to figure out a decent factor for number of copies, take into account foreign illegal sales, include the cost per disk of putting the copy protection on, the licensing fee for the copy protection, and determine the tech support man hours spent answering copy protection questions (I bet this is a big expense no one ever considers)

I’d be floored if EA didn’t have a spreadsheet the size of my house somewhere that hits all this stuff in painful detail. The CFO’s gotta be doing SOMETHING to earn his $1.4M salary.

To you or I, it’s a frustrating game that we can’t install. To them, it’s maximizing the profits so that they can pull in an extra hundred million or two. Who do you think’s put more thought into this – the SPSS-wielding finance wonks, or you? (rhetorical question, of course. This is a web forum, after all. Forum posters are always experts)

Compare to the auto industry – it’s well known that they’ll stop and figure the likely costs from wrongful-death lawsuits before they’ll issue a safety recall. If it’ll cost too much to fix, well, you just gotta let some people get killed. It’s all for the profits, baby!

Mind you, the auto guys miss the mark from time to time – cf. Firestone. Similarly, could well be that ToEE is having a vastly higher Xaroc factor than they expected. (Xaroc factor == the “#&@!monkey#&@!balls@#&!*(securerom#&!#*bastards#&!#and your mother, too, you miserable #&@!” effect)

[ARogan]

@TheWombat

Publishers simply have to bite the bullet and face the fact that anything they produce is going to be warezed. The best they can do is make it so it’s less frustrating, complex, and more rewarding to buy than to steal. Right now they all too often do it the other way around.

The solution really seems so simple. Take all the time, effort, and money sunk into copy protection licensing fees and instead put it into aspects of the actual product that can NOT be pirated. Origin use to pack nice cloth maps, full printed manuals, a sack of rocks (didn’t one of the games come with a black rock?), SOMETHING extra that gave you that nice warm fuzzy when you purchased a game. Max payne gave you a nice mouse pad. I’m not talking about promotional stuff only given to preorders but just something extra included in every box (well something small I guess now with all the small boxes).

[Stroker_Ace]

@Machfive

I like you already. Welcome to Qt3.

and thus the torch is passed from the qt3 class of 03-Aug-03 to the class of 29-Aug-03

:lol:

[Machfive]

@Stroker_Ace

[quote=Machfive]I like you already. Welcome to Qt3.

and thus the torch is passed from the qt3 class of 03-Aug-03 to the class of 29-Aug-03

:lol:[/quote]

That’s August 6, to you. ;)

Hey, we’re working in internet time. I already feel like an old man.

[Alan_Au]

@ARogan

The solution really seems so simple. Take all the time, effort, and money sunk into copy protection licensing fees and instead put it into aspects of the actual product that can NOT be pirated. Origin use to pack nice cloth maps, full printed manuals, a sack of rocks (didn’t one of the games come with a black rock?), SOMETHING extra that gave you that nice warm fuzzy when you purchased a game. Max payne gave you a nice mouse pad. I’m not talking about promotional stuff only given to preorders but just something extra included in every box (well something small I guess now with all the small boxes).

Now, with a Securom key-disc included with every package! :P

Yeah, tangible extras are a nice “thank you” to paying customers, so long as devs. can resist the urge to include physical copy-protection schemes like code-wheels, or worse, dongles. That said, I’m totally a sucker for cloth maps and lapel pins and figurines, etc.

• Alan