He’s registered. To qualify as insane on this board you have to be a guest posting in all caps.[/quote]
I am beginning to become a little suspicious of the “registered” Scandanavians, too. They just make up letters to put in the names of the cities they are supposedly from and we are to pretend they are serious contributors here.m Next thing you know, one of 'em is going to tell me they do not speak English over there either. Sheesh.
Looks like I’m feeding a troll but some things might be important enough to say at least once…
I’ve got a surprise for you. If I knew for sure that killing myself would make the destruction of millenia-old artifacts undone I’d gladly do it. I know that I’m not immortal (unlike you apparently), and this would be a better use of one’s life than what most people could hope for.
Ohhhhh, you mean you wouldn’t mind if it was someone else’s life or children that was lost instead.
So are you still happily letting other people fight and die in the war that you favour? Hypocrite.
Besides, this whole implication that lives must be traded for treasure does not even apply to this situation. A single museum is easy enough to secure. Hell, just put one of the local US Army command posts at the entrance. The scale of the looting was unforseeable but protection of the archaelogical museum and the national library (which has apparently been looted as well) should have been top priorities.
A few thousand years ago, those relics were just objects. Much like the computer sitting in front of you. In 2000 years what would you think of the notion that people would revere it and think that it would be worth losing a few lives over?
Quite possibly, yes. The value of a historical relic is not in the material object itself but in the human history that it carries. If my computer was the only thing left of this time, or one of just a few things, then it would be a very valuable carrier of historical memory, and as such it would indeed be worth losing a few lives over.
Lives given for noble causes is one thing, lives lost for the sheer sake of hoarding and collecting is another.
Here’s something to boggle over- who has the lesser humanity: someone who values other lives or someone who values possessions. … Discuss.
Your problem is that you don’t understand the difference between sheer matter and cultural creations. Gold that the ancient Egyptians mined and dumped somewhere is worth no more than gold mined today. Gold that the ancient Egyptians crafted into the death mask of Tut-Ench-Amun is almost infinitely valuable. But you probably don’t understand that either, as evidenced by your use of the word “possessions” – the whole point is that these objects are no longer mere possessions.
Surprisingly, I agree with that.
How did this topic go from ‘American lives are more important than objects’ to ‘American lives are more important than Iraqi lives’???
Good job Kalle.
Guido when you gonna shut the fuck up? Seriously. When? If you have something interesting to say, or want to dispute my points or anything then fine, be my guest. All you do is say ‘Cookie is st000pid’ and it’s fucking annoying. Try saying something on topic, or better yet pointing out just WHY I’m stupid besides the whole ‘I say soooo’ thing.
So either start having more purpose in life, or get the hell away from me you ignorant fuck.
Cookiepants when you gonna shut the fuck up? Seriously. When? If you have something interesting to say, or want to dispute my points or anything then fine, be my guest. All you do is say ‘i’m so ret444rded’ and it’s fucking annoying. Try saying something on topic, or better yet pointing out just WHY you’re not stupid besides the whole ‘I say soooo’ thing.
So either start having more purpose in life, or get the hell away from me you ignorant fuck.
When will you learn that nobody likes you? Or have you already, and this is your way of lashing out at an oh-so cruel world?
You’re not funny. You’re not smart. Anything clever you ever say gets drowned out in your other 800 posts of bullshit. You need to either stfu or get used to people not liking you at all.
Okay, I promise I’ll give the pots back if you do it.
Leave me your car and I’ll even throw in some of those old tablets with scribbles on them.
Wow. I don’t agree, but ok.
I have to take back some of my “tough shit” assessment. Here’s a BBC article talking about archaelogists panicking and warning the Pentagon back on March 6th. What’s the excuse?
Okay Cristoph, do it now and I’ll start looking for them, man.
Naah, just kidding. Put the hemlock down.
I think you put too much emphasis on the value of these artifacts.
Myself, I’d sacrifice my life for my family but not much else. It sounds like you haven’t had kids yet with your willingness to barter yours and your belief that most people’s lives have no real use. Wait till you have a son and then we’ll talk about how much an artifact is worth.
As for valuing life and favoring war- yes it does make me a hypocrite. I wanted the war to change a regime to make the world a bit safer. Whether it did or not, time will tell. Whether less civilians will be killed per year because of the fall of Saddam, we’ll see. Lives lost to save more lives are tragic but sometimes necessary.
As for placing troops there- I’d say it wasn’t a priority. I’d think that the priorites would have been to secure food supplies, medical supplies, essential infrastructures and to place command posts in secure areas. In retrospect, I’d say there are quite a few officers who’d do as you say, but it’s a bit late now.
I still don’t understand the religious significance that you have put onto the artifacts. I mean, a death mask of a King is still just a death mask for a King. If holding it or displaying it was able to unlock the wisdom of the ages, that’d be a great thing. But it doesn’t- at the end of the day, it’s still just a death mask for a King. Maybe I’ve taught too much art theory to fall for the line that such objects have a quasi-mystical purpose that gives us our knowledge and humanity. They don’t.
Or maybe I should visit a museum today and see what it does to me before I continue.
Not religious significance - cultural significance. I am surprised at the above statement. I have a deep interest in archeological artifacts and relics and believe they should be preserved for future generations.
I certainly think a priceless artifact is worth more than a single persons life.
I’d be interested to hear you say that when someone’s got your wife, an ancient vase, and a gun with one bullet in it.
In that case my wife’s life is definitely worth saving.
A bit different to a mob of looters stealing priceless artifacts out of the Iraq museum to make a quick buck.
Suffice to say the American forces could have easily defended the museum in Baghdad. But I am not surprised at what has happened. Homo sapiens descends to yet another low point in its short history on Planet Earth.
No Sean, the low point was the prison camp for kiddies and other assorted hijinks.
I realise the difference between cultural and religious. Christoph’s comment
The value of a historical relic is not in the material object itself but in the human history that it carries. If my computer was the only thing left of this time, or one of just a few things, then it would be a very valuable carrier of historical memory, and as such it would indeed be worth losing a few lives over.
attributes memory to inanimate objects. All objects are just that: objects. Humans apply significance to them. When exactly does junk become an artifact? 200 years or 2000? I’m not saying that what was looted was junk; all things that contribute to knowledge and cultural cohesiveness have value, I just can’t think of one object I would willingly give up my life for. The Magna Carta? Rip it up. Mona Lisa? Bye bye Mona. Gutenburg Bible? Yawn.
It’s funny that people think that objects are worth more than lives as long as it’s not their loved ones lives at stake.
Hopefully the objects in Iraq had been properly documented and recorded so that the cultural significance/memory of them should persist.
Oh I am sure they will end up on the black market eventually. Only problem is it will take another 50 years before they are returned to their rightful owners.
I just can’t think of one object I would willingly give up my life for
You’re probably not a very good metric for this type of thinking, Peter. What you dismiss as objects can have different amounts of value to different people. As Christoph said, you’re discounting the difference between sheer matter and cultural creations by distilling everything down to sheer matter.
Most of us are too secular to have an appreciation for what other people regard as holy relics, often with some sort of transcendent power. The closest we can come is finding someone who thinks it should be illegal to burn a flag. That’s nutty, but it’s an insight into how invested people can be in symbols and objects.
Hundreds of thousands of people over the years have given up their lives for “objects”, as well as far less tangible things: religion, nationalism, “a little patch of land”.
It’s funny that people think that objects are worth more than lives as long as it’s not their loved ones lives at stake.
Just another indication that we’re not a very good metric for people who regard things as holy.
This, BTW, is cultural fallout from the Judeo-Christian distinction between matter and spirit. We separate the world from the divine in a way that many cultures would find alien.
-Tom
I thought I made a distinction between religous and cultural relics.
I can understand people’s willingness to die for their god. I can also understand nationalism where people are willing to die for their country. I can understand people who are willing to die for a concept like democracy and freedom. What I don’t get is the willingness that Christoph (and I presume many others) would have to die for a cultural artifact.
I live in a very secular country. I couldn’t imagine too many Australians sacrificing their lives to retain icons such as the Dog on the Tucker Box or Ned Kelly’s armour. Maybe write a few indignant Letters to the Editor, but not much else. I kinda like it that way.
Makes me wonder if anyone involved in the reconstruction of Iraq has plans to maintain the secular split that Saddam enforced. I don’t think that any of the current nominees are modern day Ataturks.
Your position would have more merit, Peter, if we were invading the country to liberate the objects. But since we’ve already got our tanks and troops in the country, protecting the objects seems more or less the same amount of risk as not protecting the objects.
Oh I am sure they will end up on the black market eventually. Only problem is it will take another 50 years before they are returned to their rightful owners.[/quote]
I’m extremely skeptical. I bet the majority of them end up broken or otherwise ruined. Despite (or maybe because of) having survived so long, that stuff is usually pretty fragile. Someone takes a Mesopotamian vase and uses it to store his spare change, and before you know it the cat’s knocked it off the counter.
Tom’s flag example is a good one, I think. Many Americans have fought and even died over flags–keeping them up, knocking them down, etc. And as Tom said, people have strong feelings about burning them. Actually, it’s kind of amusing–I’d never give my life to protect an American flag, but I would probably risk my life in a fight to allow someone to burn one (easy to say from the safety of my office, I guess). How weird is that?
I don’t mean to sound too disingenuous but my position was that troops were probably sent to more strategic places that would have the potential to minimise casualities- friendly and civilian.
I’d never give my life to protect an American flag, but I would probably risk my life in a fight to allow someone to burn one (easy to say from the safety of my office, I guess). How weird is that?
I think the main similarity amongst western views are the words ‘risk my life’ instead of ‘give my life’. Most people are willing to fight if they feel they have a chance of survival. Not many westerners would strap on a suicide vest for the cause. It’s that Judeo-Christian suicide-is-a-sin thing I guess. We’ve all seen war movies where volunteers are asked to perform a hopeless mission. I wonder how many times that has actually occurred. Premeditated self-sacrifice as opposed to heat of the moment sacrifice like jumping on grenades to save your squad.
This is a point of view I can’t understand; it’s just a piece of cloth. In fact it’s a piece of cloth that someone else paid for, they can do with it what they want. I’m with John Wayne on this issue: Burn your flag all you want, but you try to touch mine and I’ll beat your head in.
Yes it does hurt when I see that, but I have a neck that turns 90 degrees, I can look away from what I don’t want to see. But like everything else in the world, if it’s forced upon me I’ll fight it. But it’s rare that anyone tries to force something on me.
As it is it’s done far too frequently to have any meaning, like how ‘bitch’ and ‘damn’ have slowly become acceptable. It’s pretty much a pointless gesture that doesn’t say much, for all I know you may be color blind and be protesting the rampant color-sighted slant of the flag. Just how does burning a flag equal a message of disagreement? I don’t go out and burn hemp or doves cause I disagree with you.
I just hope that while they’re burning the flag they stop for a second and reflect on the irony that in other countries you’d be arrested for doing it.