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Oh my [b]God.[/b]

SSBM is a fighting game. Deal with it.

Oh my [b]God.[/b]

SSBM is a fighting game. Deal with it.[/quote]

You guys seem to think the notion personally offends me; it doesn’t, honestly. I’m just trying to let you guys knows the facts of the situation, because you’re clearly misinformed.

Hey Matt,
Was there any reason why you didn’t show any of the Extended Play previews of GT4? I got a kick out of the look back at the game on the show

Oh my [b]God.[/b]

SSBM is a fighting game. Deal with it.[/quote]

You guys seem to think the notion personally offends me; it doesn’t, honestly. I’m just trying to let you guys knows the facts of the situation, because you’re clearly misinformed.[/quote]

Two or more characters repeatedly hit each other until the other one dies in one way or another. The only point of the game to beat your opponent into submission via combat moves and environmental attacks. If SSBM is not a fighter, neither is DOA.

Mainly because the Extended Play tapes are in deep storage offsite, and to pull them out costs like $75 per tape. It wouldn’t have been worth it, since we already had enough X-Play GT4 stuff to make the segment.

Oh my [b]God.[/b]

SSBM is a fighting game. Deal with it.[/quote]

You guys seem to think the notion personally offends me; it doesn’t, honestly. I’m just trying to let you guys knows the facts of the situation, because you’re clearly misinformed.[/quote]

Two or more characters repeatedly hit each other until the other one dies in one way or another. The only point of the game to beat your opponent into submission via combat moves and environmental attacks. If SSBM is not a fighter, neither is DOA.[/quote]

By that definition, so is Final Fight.

Oh my [b]God.[/b]

SSBM is a fighting game. Deal with it.[/quote]

You guys seem to think the notion personally offends me; it doesn’t, honestly. I’m just trying to let you guys knows the facts of the situation, because you’re clearly misinformed.[/quote]

Two or more characters repeatedly hit each other until the other one dies in one way or another. The only point of the game to beat your opponent into submission via combat moves and environmental attacks. If SSBM is not a fighter, neither is DOA.[/quote]

By that definition, so is Final Fight.[/quote]

Negative, sir! You have fallen into my trap! Because the point of Final Fight is not to win the fight, it’s to walk to the right and complete the level. Enemies are obstacles, not the objective. Defeating the enemy allows you access to your objective in Final Fight. Defeating the enemy in SSBM is the entire objective.

SSBM is a fighting game.

Oh my [b]God.[/b]

SSBM is a fighting game. Deal with it.[/quote]

You guys seem to think the notion personally offends me; it doesn’t, honestly. I’m just trying to let you guys knows the facts of the situation, because you’re clearly misinformed.[/quote]

Two or more characters repeatedly hit each other until the other one dies in one way or another. The only point of the game to beat your opponent into submission via combat moves and environmental attacks. If SSBM is not a fighter, neither is DOA.[/quote]

By that definition, so is Final Fight.[/quote]

Negative, sir! You have fallen into my trap! Because the point of Final Fight is not to win the fight, it’s to walk to the right and complete the level. Enemies are obstacles, not the objective. Defeating the enemy allows you access to your objective in Final Fight. Defeating the enemy in SSBM is the entire objective.

SSBM is a fighting game.[/quote]

Ok, so Phantom Dust? Unreal Tournament? Counterstrike? All fighters?

Phantom Dust most resembles a fighting game to me, though of a brand new genre and type that’s probably closest to something like Heavy Metal Geomatrix on Dreamcast or even Power Stone.

–Dave

Phantom Dust is a fighter, I would say. Unusual in nature, but it counts. UT is not because the emphasis is on shooting rather than personal combat, although UC2 bridges that gap a bit.

What exactly disqualifies SSBM from being a fighter? What does DOA do that it doesn’t?

It has girls with giant, physics-defying boobs. Duh.

I could talk myself blue in the face, and type my fingers to the bone, explaining in excruciating detail precisely how SSB/SSBM is a fighter, but it all for naught at the “it’s not a fighter” types merrily keep their fingers firmly planted in their ears, but all comes down to this excellent point…

I have yet to see a single cogent argument that SSB/SSBM is not a fighter. Not here. Not GAF. Not shoryuken.com. Go ahead, give me one reason. Not that I won’t destroy it like Kerry beat up on GWB (of course we all know how that turned out), but come on, at least try to look like you’re trying.

Phantom Dust’s emphasis is on shooting too. Hell, so is SF2’s, sometimes. “Combat actions to defeat the opponent.”

What exactly disqualifies SSBM from being a fighter? What does DOA do that it doesn’t?

It’s the general design of the game. It’s structured (yes, even DOA); SSBM is chaotic. That’s really the difference; the basic flow of the game. Every fighting game is structured such that it is controlled, tight, almost completely a contest between players; nothing left to chance. SSBM is about leaving things to chance. It’s about randomness and chaos; it’s about taking random occurences (environmental affects and items) and turning them to your advantage. That’s the difference.

Thank you, extar, for presenting the very first decent argument in defense of “SSBM is not a fighter.” Unfortunately, it’s not convincing. For you, order vs. chaos is dividing line between fighter vs. everything else, but that’s actually a poor distinction. It’s too arbitrary, and too dependent on a relatively minor facet of the game.*

Managing chaos is as much a skill as is executing special moves. Surely as a Phantom Dust player, you have to know that how you handle the randomness of an Arsenal draw can determine the outcome of a match. A newbie can screw up a perfect draw, just as an expert can work himself out of a bad draw.

Furthermore, this order vs. chaos distinction isn’t enough to push SSBM into an entirely different genre. Take a favorite genre of mine, maze games. If I was determined, I could develop a calculation that accounted for player vs enemy speed, player vs enemy attacks, and amount of area to clear/cover. At one end, you’d have a player friendly game like Pac-Man, and at the other, you’d have an enemy friendly game like shudder Lock ‘n’ Chase shudder. These changes result in game mechanics entirely different from one another. The feel is different. The style is different. The playability is different. The enjoyment is different. The games are about as night and day as I can imagine, and yet, they’re still both maze games. Order may be a common feature of fighting games, but it is not a defining feature of them.

[size=2]* Relatively minor as compared to “closely matched sides, geared for PvP, engaging in close combat over a series of rounds to determine a winner,” which seems to be a much more compelling basis for determining what genre a game should be catagorized into.[/size]

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous “SSBM is not a fighter” argument I have ever heard. All fighting games are about taking “random” occurences and turning them to your advantage. Whether it’s repeatedly whacking someone into the same spot of the fence in VF4 to set up for a ring out, purposefully using an opponent’s attack to lead into a counter that knocks him off the cliff in DOA, using that bottle the crowd threw to you to force an enemy to back off in Def Jam: Fight for NY, or side-dodging a baseball swing to counter with a smash hit for the KO in SSBM. Chance is a huge part of fighters, because you never know what the opponent will do next. The challenge of fighters is controlling that chaos through prediction, experience, repertoire and reflexes so as to turn the tide of the fight to your advantage. SSBM exemplifies this aspect of fighters better than just about any other, as it’s a tremendously skill-based game. SSBM is in some ways a leap beyond the mainstays of the fighting genre in that it does actually use the environment as a major factor. The only other fighters that really attempted that were VF3 and the recent DOA games, and they weren’t nearly as successful in their use of the concept.

There is no randomness to SSBM if you know how all the items work and what your character’s moves do. The winner of a SSBM match is the player who played the smartest and the fastest, and controlled the flow of the match so as to come out on top. SSBM, along with SFA2 and VF4, defines what a fighter should be. It’s one of the most balanced and structured fighting games I’ve ever played. I have played several hundred matches of it and I’m continually impressed with how much depth is there.

Even so, a game does not need structure and immaculate balance to qualify as a fighter. The vast majority of the genre is the antithesis of that. The very idea that “controlled, tight structure” defines a genre that includes Soul Calibur and Time Killers is hilarious.

:lol:

All depends on how integral to the genre you consider the Chaos of Battle™, I guess.

Take my compliment with a grain of salt, previously the best argument I had heard was “OMFG! Itz got teh ghey!” extarbags at least spelled correctly, had a point, and actually related it to SSBM. :wink:

Heh, yeah. Because fighters are never gay.

[quote=“Squirrel_Killer”]

Thank you, extar, for presenting the very first decent argument in defense of “SSBM is not a fighter.” Unfortunately, it’s not convincing. For you, order vs. chaos is dividing line between fighter vs. everything else, but that’s actually a poor distinction. It’s too arbitrary, and too dependent on a relatively minor facet of the game.*[/quote]

I don’t think it’s minor at all. Every game that I consider a fighting game has that characteristic. SSBM doesn’t.

Managing chaos is as much a skill as is executing special moves. Surely as a Phantom Dust player, you have to know that how you handle the randomness of an Arsenal draw can determine the outcome of a match. A newbie can screw up a perfect draw, just as an expert can work himself out of a bad draw.

I never said that managing chaos wasn’t a skill, or that there was no skill involved in SSBM. I said that I loved SSBM, in fact; I also said (well, implied) that Phantom Dust is also not a fighting game.

Order may be a common feature of fighting games, but it is not a defining feature of them.

Look, I just disagree here. I think that the fundamental defining characteristic of fighting games is that they are about player skill and nothing else. It’s like chess; it’s just you versus your opponent. No variables, no interference, no chances.

Relatively minor as compared to “closely matched sides, geared for PvP, engaging in close combat over a series of rounds to determine a winner,” which seems to be a much more compelling basis for determining what genre a game should be catagorized into.

Again, I disagree. Look at Unreal Tournament, as I said before. It’s a game that’s about beating your opponents and nothing else. What makes it not be a fighting game? (Don’t say close combat because you seem to consider PD a fighting game as well, and the emphasis there is hardly on close combat).

Not knowing what your opponent is going to do next is not “chance,” unless they’re choosing what to do randomly. None of the things you listed are even remotely random, so I don’t know what point you’re trying for.

The challenge of fighters is controlling that chaos through prediction, experience, repertoire and reflexes so as to turn the tide of the fight to your advantage.

No, because (again) there is no chance at all in a fighting game (notable exception: Zappa in GGX2, but that is completely opt-in).

SSBM exemplifies this aspect of fighters better than just about any other, as it’s a tremendously skill-based game. SSBM is in some ways a leap beyond the mainstays of the fighting genre in that it does actually use the environment as a major factor. The only other fighters that really attempted that were VF3 and the recent DOA games, and they weren’t nearly as successful in their use of the concept.

Please. If SSBM is a more advanced fighter for that reason, hockey is a more advanced version of soccer because it makes good use of the much underdeveloped “playing on ice” element of soccer.

There is no randomness to SSBM if you know how all the items work and what your character’s moves do.

Really? Wow, I’ve always liked the Gamecube, but who knew that it actually read your thoughts and, if it determined that you knew what the items and moves did, it stopped spawning items randomly and generating environmental effects randomly. Stunning, underused piece of hardware right there.

The winner of a SSBM match is the player who played the smartest and the fastest, and controlled the flow of the match so as to come out on top. SSBM, along with SFA2 and VF4, defines what a fighter should be. It’s one of the most balanced and structured fighting games I’ve ever played. I have played several hundred matches of it and I’m continually impressed with how much depth is there.

Once again, I never said that there was no skill involved in SSBM. Similarly, I never said that it was a shallow game. Please stop projecting other people’s crappy arguments onto me; it’s getting tiresome.

Even so, a game does not need structure and immaculate balance to qualify as a fighter. The vast majority of the genre is the antithesis of that. The very idea that “controlled, tight structure” defines a genre that includes Soul Calibur and Time Killers is hilarious.

Quick, name me one random occurrence in Soul Calibur. Go ahead, pick one thing in SF3 that isn’t player-controlled. Or something in Samurai Shodown, perhaps, that allows a match to turn purely on the flip of a coin.