This forum is so unrepresentative of the real world or you’d realize that nobody other than fringe nutcases think that it was appropriate for a guy who landed on a spaceship on a comet, going 75,000 mph, to be bullied to tears for wearing a Hawaiian shirt.

Don’t understand why you think this is relevant to the discussion. Dress up if you’re going to court because it’s mandatory? If you’re celebrating one of humanity’s greatest achievements, dress like you’re going to court or meeting the president?

Do you really have nothing better to do than be a trolling jerk?

If you’re celebrating at work, dress like your coworkers expect you to dress at work.
If you’re celebrating at work in front of a TV camera, dress like the world expects you to dress at work.
If you’re celebrating at a pub, nobody cares how you dress.

If you insist on defying people’s expectations, then don’t be surprised when people talk about how you defied their expectations.

Incredulity is your port in a storm. “People don’t share my values? This simply isn’t happening!”

Because she wasn’t dressed in a professional outfit for the venue. In this case, it would’ve been jeans and t-shirt, or something geeky, or blouse and slacks, or anything but an outfit more appropriate to hitting the nightclub. She bemoaned the fact that dressing like a Sex in the City extra didn’t convey the seriousness of her work. Well… Duh. In another instance she was dressed in a frilly skirt and goofball shirt. (She admitted it was a silly outfit.) Again, it’s tough to have anyone take you seriously as a journalist when you’re dressed like a 10-year-old.

Okay, buddy. Explain to me how horrendously unreasonable the very concept of dressing within the limits of what is commonly expected in a given venue is. “Incredulity” indeed.

Be totally honest: what do you think would happen if a young associate at a big firm wore that shirt to an important closing?

The “expected” part is the tricky bit there. Expected by who? I’m in the IT business myself and as a consultant that deals with lots of different clients I see a range of dress codes used across organizations doing identical work. Some places the IT people will be dirty jeans and t-shirts. Other places business casual. Other places (banks) it’s jackets and ties. They key thing is that all of these people have internalized their own dress code as the one true way. I show up in a jacket and tie to a client site where everyone is in t-shirts and they express horror at the “monkey suit” I’m forced to wear. I show up in a collared shirt with no tie to a banking client and I get dirty looks.

Dressing appropriately for the environment is a lot harder than it sounds, and changing the frame from what one organizational culture suggests is appropriate to what different subcultures on the internet think is appropriate just confuses the issue more.

Law is the most superficial and high-school-cliquey profession and its standards of decorum shouldn’t be used as a yardstick for anything.

I think when you’re falling over yourself to defend repression and aggressive self-policing in the workplace then you should reexamine your argument. I don’t dispute that people button down to meet workplace standards, but I think it’s a compromise that sits in a constellation of work-related conformity stressors that don’t deserve to be celebrated and in fact should be resisted.

They’re not just outfits. EGL shades into a lifestyle and EGL enthusiasts primarily meet up at cons. If you’re way down that rabbit hole I can see why it would be a shock to realize that you have to code switch because you’re dealing with people who have anxiety attacks when they see square pegs and round holes.

I totally agree, I just find Deslock’s feigned outraged regarding dress codes a bit ironic, because I’m certain he is highly aware of what is and is not appropriate in his profession. It’s all about context. In my view appearing on international media as the ambassador of a major scientific enterprise requires a certain degree of decorum. Further, when there is at least some controversy over inclusiveness in STEM industries some acting (however unwittingly) as representative of that industry should consider how their appearance reflects on that industry.

The people being outraged over the reaction aren’t really commenting on shirts and decorum and what’s appropriate; they’re outraged over anything (be it reactions or shirts – note the mention of an “offensive” Che Guevara shirt) remotely associated with progressivism or liberalism. Desslock (and others) would probably be apoplectic and calling for public hanging if the dude had been wearing an Obama shirt (nevermind it would be pretty weird, considering where he is).

I don’t know if “hard” is really the right term. Certainly guessing correctly on Day 1 can be difficult, and maybe trying to figure out what to wear for the initial interview can be tough, but generally you know what to expect after a week at the job site.

I’m a consultant myself and my general rule of thumb is that being over-dressed is far, far easier to correct than being under-dressed. You can always take off your coat and tie, but you can’t turn your jeans and sneakers into a suit.

Moreover, dressing appropriately for your job is a skill that you can ignore or cultivate like any other workplace skill – be it writing well, coding in Ruby, arriving on time, knowing how to operate a forklift, or having a firm handshake. Depending on your workplace, the effort you put into dressing appropriately may or may not translate into promotions, raises, better chemistry with your team, better chemistry with your boss, etc.

In my job, I manage a fair number of people and I interact with a VERY large and diverse number of people. A surprisingly large part of my job is to convince people that I am competent, serious, a strong leader, and worth listening to. I’d like to think that I could make a case for all of those no matter what I dressed like, but I’ve found that I can significantly reduce the work I have to do to make that case if I simply make a good first external impression.

The young woman Busbecq speaks of below made the opposite choice. She chose to handicap herself with attire that did not make a good impression, so she had to work harder to do the same job. Anyone have a link to the article? I vaguely remember the case, I think, but it’s a little fuzzy.

OK, for those people like me who don’t know what the hell “EGL” is and are (rightfully) afraid to Google it, I took the chance: “Elegant Gothic Lolita” seems to be the source of the acronym.

Completely agreed, I was just trying to point out that expectations and organizational cultures differ pretty significantly across different organizations despite them all being in the same industry. There’s no predicting, so it’s really difficult for an outsider to point at a persons shirt and say that it’s just common sense not to wear something like that in the workplace.

I was looking for it, but the only articles I can dig up are the normal “Dress to Impress, Ladies!” type advice columns.

“These people aren’t making an actual argument, they’re just bigots” is the kissing cousin to AdamB’s “they must be trolling” strategy for avoiding the implications of other people holding different positions than you on some issue. I guarantee I am more progressivist or liberal or whatever label you use to make yourself feel better than other people than you.

Stand back folks, he probably doesn’t own a television either.

Is this like a size contest?

I’m really curious to meet this Adam B fella that Busbecq is arguing against. He sounds fascinating.