Soma
2941
No. The biggest problem with GGers is that some are dicks and trolls. What is wrong is the tactics they use. They can talk about “this is really about ethics in gaming journalism” all day long, as long as they resort to personal attacks, there is no more exchange of ideas. It is either fight or flight, when what is required is neither. If you sink to their level and fight them with their own tactics, you are effectively joining them.
Sometimes it takes wisdom to harvest all that anger and use it on something more constructive. Sometimes it is more worthwhile to just walk away.
I can understand why someone just don’t get the feminist/anti-racist argument in a discussion board (I have no names in mind on who get or don’t get it, it is just a general comment). I didn’t get it once upon a time. It takes a book (or three) to get a grip on the issues, or it takes some IRL discussions. So sometimes it is just better to walk away if the discussion is going nowhere.
I can’t stress enough that book comment. One of the greatest elements of white male privilege is discussing this shit like it’s abstract, like it’s something to weigh the pros and cons of as if redlining is a thought experiment. Knowledge and education, and I don’t mean Thomas Sowell books and Return of Kings Youtubes, should sort that out for you.
That neutrality is a luxury only we possess. Other people get to fucking live it, and while I’m thankful I’m not one of them there but for the grace of God go I.
But I disagree that the problem with GGers is that they are dicks and trolls. Dicks and trolls I can deal with. Child porn, white supremacy, MRA shit? Not so much.
So while some of you may applaud Timex’s ability to keep an even keel about him and civilly evaluate any unjust situation long enough to discover that #actually the victims bear some responsibility for their oppression, I will have to respectfully disagree with you on that point. No. Distanced callous observation isn’t a moral virtue, especially not when it comes with a healthy dose(as it nearly always does) of denying the problem exist. If people need their feelings coddled when discussing the absolutely toxic nature of online gamer culture, they are part of that toxicity. Fuck them. I disagree entirely that the solution there is creating a new better community. How about they leave?
pwk- I can troll you into furious anger just by stating my honest beliefs, kid, we don’t need to compare Deja News resumes for that.
Timex
2943
But Virgil, your suggestion that objective and unemotional analysis requires a denial of the problem being analyzed is clearly false. There is nothing that correlates those two things, unless you believe that no one deeply thinking about such issues comes to the conclusion that they exist (which is not true).
For instance, you seemingly believe that i don’t think racism exists. But i clearly do, and have explicitly stated it in this thread. The same goes for sexism. But believing this things exist does not mean that i would stop thinking about them rationally, or never question anything that someone says just because they come from that same belief.
I believe that you perhaps have only encountered anyone offering anything other than head nodding, in the form of people who are actually trying to argue that things like racism or white privilege no longer exist, but i fully accept the existence of those things. That’s why i pointed out to you that you were constructing a fiction against which to argue. You noticed certain statements, and then imagined that only a certain type of person could possibly say them, and then added in all of the other beliefs that would be held by that type of person. But those were just imagined by you, especially when they are flat out denied. It’s not like I say that racism is a thing, but secretly believe it’s not. That would be absurd.
I am likely to the right of you on the political spectrum, especially regarding things like economic freedom, but i do not believe that i am anywhere close to as far right as you seem to believe. I vote for democrats, i support the ACA, I donate money to natural conservation charities, i support gay rights, etc. Those are not generally things that you would find in a right wing reactionary who eats whatever fox news and right wing radio feeds them.
First off, where did I suggest that? Secondly, even given that horrific misreading(literally the opposite of that is true, maybe education has a little more value than you think?), are you seriously trying for yet another #actually? Incredible.
Maybe this needs to be spelled out. I understand your views, I don’t agree with you. When you say sexism exists and is real, I agree. Where we differ is that when the rubber hits the road, you don’t think pretty much anyone should actually get called sexist. Like I posted earlier in response to Desslock’s self-negating “no racists are posting here”, if sexism is real, someone is doing it. Who is that?
Timex
2945
I guess you really can’t help it.
Well in the last example, Tylers shitty bit of concern trolling* earned 700 tweets, and thats from article that could be perceived as calling a minimum of 302,000 people Nazi’s, never mind those who find the PCMR tag amusing outside of subbing to the subreddit, say 500,000 people, 0.14%
0.14% of a niche subculture is not toxic, and if you believe 0.14% of PCMR represent a culture in its entirety, then I invite you over to the Islam threads.
If a 10% minority of PCMR subreddit did anything it would be a consumer action group of 30,000, a significant market force, so they are lucky it was kept to fractions of a percentage.
The story probably ends here, where the editor translates the angry email from the subscriptions department.
http://www.pcgamer.com/a-note-on-disclosure/
A fully agree that going Inch High Private Eye on Tylers lovelife was completely over the top, but it resulted in that, like it or not.
Oh wow math! Look at you! But Christ on a stick you’re an easily offended sort, aren’t you? Calling people Nazis? And a spot of #NotAll!
Or, uh, is it that you STILL haven’t read the article that’s got you so wound up?
0.14% of a niche subculture is not toxic, and if you believe 0.14% of PCMR represent a culture in its entirety, then I invite you over to the Islam threads.
If a 10% minority of PCMR subreddit did anything it would be a consumer action group of 30,000, a significant market force, so they are lucky it was kept to fractions of a percentage.
The story probably ends here, where the editor translates the angry email from the subscriptions department.
http://www.pcgamer.com/a-note-on-disclosure/
A fully agree that going Inch High Private Eye on Tylers lovelife was completely over the top, but it resulted in that, like it or not.
Was there some dispute as to what happened? I just called you out for this agency-removing bullshit. I know what resulted in what. Wearing an ugly shirt resulted in getting feminists to call that shirt ugly, but you didn’t have this bird’s eye “like it or not” view. Instead you were sobbing into your heavy metal-themed comic book collection about how the SJWs got another brave soul and there’s no safe space for you anymore.
*That isn’t concern trolling, but the lol sort of dude who mods a PCMR subreddit probably isn’t real good at your language skills and picking up on nuance, if you get my drift.
Concern trolling is when I pretend to give #GG PR advice, not when someone from PC Gamer just states their honest opinion. He wasn’t trying to hurt your precious feelings. That’s kind of a recurring bit here, isn’t it? That #GGers assume that normal people who dip in to remind them how awful this shit is MUST be trolling, as if it’s impossible for someone to just sincerely think the PCMR thing is dumb and overplayed. The self-centered victim act never ends. “That man hurt my FEELINGS, get him, and he started it so anything I do is just the inevitable consequence!”
Leigh Alexander writing that article was “wading into” the cosplaying/injoke/“uses PCMR without irony” crew when she wrote that article, shit like that.
Sorry but this is truly perverse logic. First of all, the article was absolutely not a concern troll, since trolls are not in earnest. Secondly the article called for no dramatic action, represented no threat of any kind, and absolutely did not accuse anyone of being a neo-nazi. The worst thing you can say about that article is that it called attention to a potentially loaded phrase… But heaven forbid anyone should express their opinion in a free and open society I suppose.
0.14% of a niche subculture is not toxic, and if you believe 0.14% of PCMR represent a culture in its entirety, then I invite you over to the Islam threads.
Nice strawman!
If a 10% minority of PCMR subreddit did anything it would be a consumer action group of 30,000, a significant market force, so they are lucky it was kept to fractions of a percentage.
Yes absolutely in no circumstances should someone say something that a group of people finds uncomfortable or controversial, right? Best just not to speak your mind, right? Is this the position you are now taking?
A fully agree that going Inch High Private Eye on Tylers lovelife was completely over the top, but it resulted in that, like it or not.
Charlie Hebdo’s depiction of the prophet Mohammed resulted in a horrible massacre. I guess everyone better stop with the depictions of Mohammed.
His concern trolling was clickbait, no more no less. If it was merely opinion he would have stated on twitter/fb/his forums and nothing happened, but no, him and his editor decided the best thing for PC Gamer to do was to find the biggest room of PC Gamers they could find, march in, announce they are a bunch of nazi assholes, and when a tiny percentage of the 300,000 complain at being called nazis, are all like "woah its just an opinion! sheesh! you sure are touchy! whilst turning to their buddies and saying see! I told you they were all assholes!
Him and his editor are idiots, and this was the result of their idiocy. I don’t see Fox News picking out a large subculture within the GOP and start rubbishing it as they seem to have some awareness of their audience and I would expect anyone with a modicum of business sense doing similar in the publishing industry.
It’s a fully formed strawman to say they were accusing anyone AT ALL of being a Nazi. This is not a thing that happened. People who responded to the article as if that’s what it was saying are either not honest or not intelligent people; they are wrong and they should not be catered to. The fact is it’s just the same crowd who use the barest pretext to try and squash free speech with cyber-terror tactics.
Him and his editor are idiots, and this was the result of their idiocy. I don’t see Fox News picking out a large subculture within the GOP and start rubbishing it as they seem to have some awareness of their audience and I would expect anyone with a modicum of business sense doing similar in the publishing industry.
This is seriously the angle you are going to take? Dammit PC Gamer, why can’t you be more like Fox News!!! Just feed us what we want to hear and don’t say anything that might upset us.
Sorry but as a member of the PC Gaming master race I find your attitude and position utterly craven and without merit, and I fully support Tyler and PC Gamer. As you say just a tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of PC gamers responded like out of touch idiots to this, so I’m pretty confident I am in the vast majority here.
Also I’d like apologize to Tyler on behalf of PC gamers everywhere. Sorry about the toxic trolls who are attacking you… you did not say anything whatsoever that should provoke that reaction. Please do not allow this idiot minority to squash your freedom of expression as a human or the freedom of press that PC Gamer as an organization should enjoy.
If Charlie Hebdos customers were Muslims I’d agree with this.
PC Gamer wanted clicks, they got them, but to do this whilst not expecting backlash, or to play the identity politics card without expecting 20,000 obsessives in KIA not to start digging around Tylers personal life is naive and a poor awareness of their environment, hence them having to issue some cringingly embarrassing statements about a member of staffs personal relationship with someone who works for a client company.
Yes I saw what you wrote, and I think it is both incorrect (re PC Gamer & Tyler’s motivations and that they should have expected that response) and craven and wrong philosophically. Your position is basically that while you personally don’t endorse this terrible response, Tyler had it coming for dressing like a slut.
Timex
2953
I missed it, what was the response to the pcmr article? Did someone dox the guy or something?
That seems kind of absurd. The idea of pcmr being offensive is ridiculous, but that guys article wasn’t insulting to anyone. I can’t imagine anyone taking offense at it beyond eyerolling.
That’s what I mean about risk. The entire topic’s a no-go zone for discussion unless you like being the focus of an Internet’s Attention (see: Milo).
This is and will affect the academic study of games and if it’s taken seriously as a creative medium.
If games publications want to run articles on identity politics vs subcultures that exist within their customer base and audience I would advise them to run a risk analysis and a cost-benefit analysis on the results of the risk analysis. This is the environment that they exist in and that their peers in the industry have created for them.
There are swathes of the industry that have made the decision not to touch identity politics and concentrate on games, and these guys subscription departments and PR had a quiet week. There certainly IS a market for certain games publications to concentrate on identity politics and social issues, I just don’t believe it is dominant within the market and some of the bigger players are yet to realise this.
I like how you think it’s about identity politics. I guess since it’s your personal bugaboo you see it everywhere.
But really why continue this conversation? Your position is embarrassing, and the more you expound on it the more embarrassing it gets. Save yourself man.
PCMR didn’t like what he said, GG on /kotakuinaction, 8chan and within PCMR harnessed that energy with tweets, complaints to PC Gamer, cancelled subscriptions and in the link I gave, looked into his personal life, found he was shacked up with some Ubisoft PR chick and had given positive reviews of Ubisoft games and made lots of noise about it.
I suspect most of the legwork was undertaken by GG activists rather than PCMR enthusiasts, seeing PCMR is little more than wanking over expensive GFX cards, benchmarks and pictures of Gabe Newell and make snide comments about console owning peasants.
No doxxing, I dont think anyone in baph or its ilk cared.
Well, wouldn’t want this place to become a hugbox, this is the role I have chosen to play, and even though its a bit of grind these days, it can be fun.
Timex
2959
Well, of the guy had given reviews based on personal relationships, that’s crappy, but it’s kind of unrelated to this.
I think that those folks playing private detective and digging up dirt on anyone who even mildly offends them are doing a much greater disservice to them community than even the most obnoxious SJW. They are essentially embracing the intellectual equivalent of terror tactics, trying to supress ideas and opinions by instilling fear in their potential targets.
It’s crappy to have people potentially act unethically and give reviews based on their relationship with a producer, but if someone does that then bring up those conflicts of interest then.
Its not acceptable to just go out and dig up dirt on someone, dealing with a totally unrelated topic, because they wrote something that you disagree with.
If someone writes something you disagree with, the response is to debate them openly, and explain why they are mistaken. Not just try to destroy them and remove them from the stage.
There is no evidence he based the reviews on his relationship. I work in an industry with self-imposed (and mandatory) chinese walls and the like, its not hard.
