2661

I thought the retirement of Selmy was a great performance by the actor. He looked so damn pissed.

2662

They probably didn’t tell him that he’ll be back as Arstan Whitebeard and he thinks he’s actually off the series for good now. Method acting ftw!

2663

I just watched this again and am wondering about the exchange between the Eunich and Ned regarding the king’s death. “The wine slowed him and the boar sliced him, but your mercy killed him.” Did I miss something? Ned’s mercy allowed Cersie to plot the rule post Robert, but the mercy part didn’t get the king killed…did it?

2664

I understood that as Ned’s mercy towards Cersei – had he not confronted her and warned her that he was going to tell Robert, then she never would have had Robert drugged to the point where he was unable to control an encounter with a boar. Had Ned been more ruthless towards Cersei, then Robert wouldn’t have been drugged.

2665

Ned specifically says it’s mercy for her children; he warned Cersei so that she could send her kids back to Casterly Rock before shit hit the fan.

2666

Didn’t Ned warn her after Robert had gone hunting? How did Cersei drug Robert when he was already out hunting?

2667

The hunting party wasn’t entirely incommunicado, apparently. There was the report of the King tracking the white hart, although that might have been Joffrey’s party returning early. The Varys-Eddard conversation is pretty faithful to the book, particularly the whole “madness of mercy” / “your mercy” killed the king." part.

2668

I think in the show it’s meant more as

If you’re so keen to tell King Robert about Cersei’s dirty little secret then TELL THE KING… don’t tell Cercei first “out of mercy for her children”.

Or words to that effect.

2669

If I remember right, the hunting party in the book wasn’t just 3 dudes in the forest like the show depicted - it was more like medieval/renaissance era hunts, where you have beaters and a grand party with servants - something you’d easily be able to get messengers into and out of.

2670

I thought it meant that Cersei told (or implied towards) Maester Pycelle to not try to save Robert or even keep him alive, apart from ordering Lancel to drug the wine. (Or at least give Robert the strongest wine he could get his paws on.)

2671

Yeah, it’s funny, in the book it definitely comes across as “You told Cersei you were going to destroy her, and in reaction she killed the king save herself,” but in the show, because of the lame hunting scene, it seems more like “Because you didn’t tell the king when you had the chance, you allowed Cersei’s pre-existing assassination plan to succeed.”

2672

Exactly.

Correct.

2673

So the whole Syrio mortality status thing. The sound design there seemed to play up the ambiguity at first, in that you think you hear Syrio being cut down, but then - from a different angle? - you hear fighting going on up the stairs from where Arya is. But on a second viewing, that first sound does seem like it comes from back behind her, doesn’t it?

Also, I’ve always found the S=J theorizing to be pretty implausible given the chronology of Eddard offering the prisoners to Yoren before Syrio’s “fight.” And the lack of discussion of Forel’s fate cuts both ways; you’d expect, given that Arya went missing, that the Lannisters would have been talking about him a great deal if he were missing too - from their point of view it would seem certain that they escaped together.

EDIT: Although I suppose could have been imprisoned by the Lannisters without much discussion, consistent with either SF=JH or his just being alive.

2674

There is nothing inconsistent about the prisoners being offered to Yoren by Ned, as:

1 - there is nothing that confirms any particular prisoners were offered by Ned to Yoren; and
2- even if they were, that does not prevent Syrio from slipping into the dungeons or even into Yoren’s wagon and performed a switcheroo at any time.

So, in fairness, it’s all possible. To be clear, I don’t particularly believe in it, but it is admittedly quite possible.

BTW, on the S=J front, for those not closely watching episode 08, there is what appears to be a pointless 10 second scene just before the final throne room scene in the episode. In this “pointless” 10 second scene, we see a nameless, faceless, guard walk through Ned’s cell for no reason whatsoever, give him a mild kick and heading down a hall with a torch in hand. The guard is on the screen for a few seconds at most.

The question is: why was this brief scene included at all?

In the books, Ned was in the Black Cells, had a private cell which was small and behind a solid, thick oak door. There was no reason to walk into Ned’s cell whatsoever.

In the TV series, it appears that a guard who was heading down the gallery (although Eddard is the only prisoner in the Black Cells at this time) for no apparent reason. Again, no good reason to show this totally innocuous scene to the audience – unless it wasn’t innocuous at all.

And that’s the point: why they even bothered to show such a brief throwaway scene? We already know Ned is in the dungeons at that point in the episode. We have already seen Varys visit him and Tywin has confirmed Ned is in chains and will not be released.

Yet, they show us this scene anyway, for reasons unknown. It may be argued that the small scene simply provides a reminder to the viewer of Ned’s predicament just before the final court scene where Sansa begs for her father’s life. I suppose this is possible – though it seems quite unnecessary at that point.

The Syrio=Jaqen conspiracy theorists can justify that the “guard” was Syrio the Faceless Man, heading down to the cells to find Jaqen and do the switch. The reason they showed it was to provide a clue to careful viewers that somebody, presumably in disguise, is tramping around down in the dungeons who shouldn’t be there.

I don’t put much stock in the Syrio = Jaqen theory, but it was a very odd thing to show in an episode where screen time was closely budgeted by GRRM. Yet GRRM wanted us to see this very brief “throwaway scene”. Why?

I would also add that the book never had Syrio talking about any aspect of the Many Faced God of Death. Syrio never does it – not even once. Yet in the series, Syrio does – and often. It’s not as is there are no other gods in Bravos for Syrio to worship or pay heed to. Bravos has temples to HUNDREDS of gods there. The House of Black and White is just one of many. Yet in the TV series, Syrio repeatedly quotes the God of Death.

My point: All of the foregoing is some evidence that Syrio = Jaqen is a real possibility.

Or, it is evidence that GRRM just enjoys fucking with us, from time to time. :P

2675

All of the above has made me believe Syrio=Jaqen. And I think end of Season two, when we find out Jaqen is a Faceless Man, we the viewers will be shown that it is Syrio. Arya will be unaware.

Also, has anyone mentioned that Varys also says ‘Not today’ in response to the idea of Ned’s death. This lends credence to another fan theory about Varys and his ultimate loyalties.

2676

I am still heavily dubious about SF=JH. (And at any rate, if he really is JH, who is basically not very likable or helpful to Arya, who really cares that he didn’t die?)

Wow. That didn’t stick with me at all, but good catch. And it’s the GRRM episode so everything means something, according to tin-foil aSoIaF reasoning.

2677

Like in every fantasy novel, you see a character left behind to fight without dying? They ain’t dead.

2678

Yeah, this is Martin we’re talking about here though. He likes to break fantasy tropes.

2679

I have avoided this thread for weeks, as I didn’t have HBO Go, but I also agree that this scene and actor were very weak for me.

The kid actor was bad, and I always pictured him as older than Arya, lanky, and more menacing.

In other words, a junior stable hand who has a REASON to be in the Tower of the Hand, as opposed to a boy who has no business there.

2680

If Syrio is Jaqen, then the only reason for Jaqen being on that wagon was not to accomplish some other purpose on the Wall or in Harrenhall. The purpose of Jaqen being there was to aid Arya, garner her trust and for Jaqen to either bring her back to the House of Black and White himself (you will recall he offers to take Arya with him ) or slip her the Iron Coin of the Faceless Men so that she could make the journey on her own (which she does).

It means that the Faceless Men have an agenda of their own, that it has included Arya from the start – and presumably – that they are, therefore, following some prophecy to guide their actions. To what end, we do not know – but the fact that Jaqen later assumes the form of Pate to acquire the master key to the Citadel of Oldtown is disturbing.

What secret lies in the Citadel of Oldtown that is probably unknown to the Faceless Men? Well, the exact poison used by a faction within the Grey Sheep to kill the Targaryen dragons, for one. :)

That the cult of the God of Death, founded as an extremist underground resistance movement to fight the DragonLords of old Valyria might have been playing Arya all along is, you must admit, a Pretty Big Deal.

Other major plot point: if the above speculation contains any truth, the Faceless Men still don’t know that Arya is a warg. Given that their cult requires that the Novice surrender their entire sense of self and personal identity to the Many Faced God – Arya’s link to Nymeria remains a secret that even she doesn’t know.