Game of Thrones (HBO)

[Guido_Jones]

I had one complaint last night. The girl playing Arya is very obviously developing breasts and they didn’t bother to tape her up. It looked frankly ridiculous when she was supposed to be passing for a girl and her breasts kept pushing up her shirt. Kinda obvious!

So you don’t feel like a pedo, my wife pointed out the same thing.

[Tracy_Baker]

I think the sort of people that say the Starks deserved what they got have a serious blame the victim mentality. It’s interesting to see.

I’d say it’s more a “hold people accountable for their willfully stupid actions” mentality, but it has already taken up an inordinate amount of the thread so I’ll shut up about it now.

[Diana_Baba]

About Arya’s budding boobs, I noticed them too, but I gave it a pass. Mostly because there was no time to tape em up, Yoren chopped up her hair in the hallway with peeps passing by and then hustled her out to the wagon. No time. Not like he bade her to change and pack her things. If her budding boobs are showing in subsequent episodes, then I’ll be more critical.

[Telefrog]

So you don’t feel like a pedo, my wife pointed out the same thing.

I know, right? I knew someone here would rib me about it, but seriously!? The show’s costume person, or maybe someone on set couldn’t have said something?

Usually the girl pretending to be a boy thing fails in most of these period pieces (Hello, Dragonslayer!) because the girl doesn’t sound anything like a boy nor does she have the face of a boy despite smudging coal on it, but they usually have the presence of mind to tape the chest down. I can suspend some disbelief. In every way, Arya pretending to be a boy failed.

I don’t know what they’ll do next season about it. She’s going to be a lot more obvious.

[Mr_PeaCH]

I don’t know what to say except that you and I experienced altogether different things from the same scene. Some of that is simply putting together odd choices the TV series (particularly highlighting Roz so many times, and then bringing her all the way from the North to Baelish, etc) with what Dotrice did. The instant switch from coughing old man to spry codger bouncing around, followed by a pronounced re-hunching as he prepares to open the door speaks volumes, and in fact until reading your interpretation I thought they were being over-the-top with the reveal. Roz was put there for a reason by the filmmakers, and the fact that Pycelle is so purposefully babbling at her seems to speak volumes about who he is even if he doesn’t know who specifically planted her (not that it would be tough to connect the dots). At a minimum, he assumes he is being watched and acts accordingly, living a double life as a sickly, doddering old maester while he runs his own plans. I expect this will also make the later kidnapping and imprisonment by Tyrion a more interconnected event than it is in the book since the prostitute will likely be Roz or at least explicitly linked by viewers to Baelish.

Did you maybe miss the last minute of the scene? When he shot up, did calisthenics, trotted around the room, then exaggeratedly hunched himself back over before he opened the door? He did everything but hold up a sign that said “I’m not as doddering and senile as I’m pretending to be”.

Watch it again if you have a moment and listen to his monologue. Joffrey has the potential for true greatness? That’s stretches credulity. My favorite tell in that scene came later though, there’s a beautiful moment where Pycelle preens before the mirror before settling into ‘character’ for the rest of the world. We’ve seen that contrast again and again through the first season. The old fool who gives Ned the genealogy vs the ferocious interrogator that tears into Sansa for carrying traitors blood. He shifts with the political winds quite deftly.

Thanks. I’ve returned to my senses. But does this interpretation/revelation of Pycelle seem in keeping with the book or a departure to any of you?

[Mordrak]

Watch it again if you have a moment and listen to his monologue. Joffrey has the potential for true greatness? That’s stretches credulity. My favorite tell in that scene came later though, there’s a beautiful moment where Pycelle preens before the mirror before settling into ‘character’ for the rest of the world. We’ve seen that contrast again and again through the first season. The old fool who gives Ned the genealogy vs the ferocious interrogator that tears into Sansa for carrying traitors blood. He shifts with the political winds quite deftly.

What’s great about that rambling sequence is no matter who questions her or who she reports to, there’s something in there for them to like.

Aerys was a good man, but descended into madness (not his fault).

Robert was a good soldier, but always the soldier and blind to his political enemies (not really his fault, wrong man for the position).

Joffery has the potential for greatness.

He’s basically trying to play all the sides.

[Jason_Townsend]

What’s great about that rambling sequence is no matter who questions her or who she reports to, there’s something in there for them to like.

Meh, to me it felt like they were returning to their traditional sexposition model of dumping background information on the viewer, just with “restrained” nudity in place of episode 7’s silliness. Although I suppose it does build up Pycelle as a “player” in the next season’s political games, if somewhat artificially.

[Mordrak]

I’d say it’s more a “hold people accountable for their willfully stupid actions” mentality, but it has already taken up an inordinate amount of the thread so I’ll shut up about it now.

It’s when that extends into justifying, excusing, apologizing for, or ignoring the bad behavior of others, that it goes from holding people accountable to blaming the victim. I also think you way oversell how much foreknowledge they had of particular consequences.

It’s the same kind of bullshit that’s used to defend Goldman Sachs, but like you said, it’s taken up a lot of time in the thread.

[Lizard_King]

Thanks. I’ve returned to my senses. But does this interpretation/revelation of Pycelle seem in keeping with the book or a departure to any of you?

I wouldn’t call it a departure, but for the most part in the books (apart from Cersei’s paranoia) Pycelle is mostly perceived as an untrustworthy pawn of other players or a parasite that survives on flattery and seniority. With that scene, and with what they’ve emphasized in the past (eg the choice moments when he’s spoken up with surprisingly assertive horrible advice) it becomes clearer that he is more in the league of a Varys or Littlefinger albeit in his own special way. That will likely make his brief fall from grace a much more interesting and consequential one.

It’s the same kind of bullshit that’s used to defend Goldman Sachs, but like you said, it’s taken up a lot of time in the thread.

Man, what? You actually think saying that is going to let the issue go? As much of a Stark-hater as I am, I disagree with much of what Tracy is saying. But it’s just a fantasy series where it’s fun to pass judgment in sweepingly amoral ways on huge swathes of people.

[gurugeorge]

LOL, well now we know where all the money that didn’t go into making the big battles went.

Those dragons were fucking top-notch CGI, very realistic (apart from the tiniest hint of plasticky look about the wings on close up). Absolutely a thrilling and proper end sequence to the season. I can imagine if I hadn’t been an idiot and immediately devoured all the books after like the third episode, I’d be blown away and gagging for next season.

Well, I’m gagging for the next season anyway, just to see how they do it :)

Quite a few “new” bits in this episode, but all pretty good. The basic skeleton of the story is still being well-preserved.

But really, it’s the actors that have made the tv series for me. Nearly everyone is at the top of their game, totally engaging and believable. My favourites have been Tyrion, Ned, Catelyn, Cersei, Jaimie, Dany, Ser Jorah, Rob Snow, old Mormont, Bronn - but there’s been just an absolute shitload of brilliant acting all round, especially from the craggy old dude contingent.

[gurugeorge]

You two are using different definitions of that expression, i don’t know how you aren’t noticing it. They got what they deserve = they were stupid, so they died/lose. Not “they got what they deserve” => good stuff happens to good guys, bad stuff happens to to bad guys. One is about “natural selection” and predominance of strong, the other is about a fictitious karma.

I think we’re both on the same page, otherwise Tracy wouldn’t be talking about mutually exclusive bubbles of justice, and that kind of thing.

“Deserved” in its most basic sense is connected with right and wrong, what’s deserved and undeserved - i.e. its basic meaning is related to justice, and that’s what Tracy and me are talking about. S/he thinks that there are various senses of justice displayed by the characters, I say no, there is only one sense of justice (the same as the one that’s common here in this world) that’s acknowledged by most players, but they usually deliberately don’t follow it, for their own ends.

I can see how it’s possible to say they got what they “deserved” in the looser sense relating to “well what did they expect would happen?” logically and pragmatically; but I don’t think GRRM is the moral relativist many people seem to think he is, so I don’t think the Starks got their just desserts in the strict sense - I think GRRM’s sense of justice (or rather, the sense of what’s right or wrong that pervades the books, and that most of the characters in the books are aware of, even if they don’t follow it) is quite orthodox.

[Mordrak]

Man, what? You actually think saying that is going to let the issue go? As much of a Stark-hater as I am, I disagree with much of what Tracy is saying. But it’s just a fantasy series where it’s fun to pass judgment in sweepingly amoral ways on huge swathes of people.

I was trying to find a recent analog where the same narrative was presented but basically as a defense of a predatory organization. You’re right, me bringing P&R into this thread isn’t going to let it go, but to Tracy’s credit he has let it go. But fair enough and time to let it die the way it deserves by fading as the thread continues to more relevant matters.

[rowe33]

So no talk about our first looks at Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen? At least I assume we saw all three. The short-haired man in the middle in the cart scene seems to have filed teeth. The longer-haired man seems to have nose damage but it’s definitely not missing so I’m guessing maybe they changed him a bit. And the hooded man has to be Jaqen, right?

[Walter_Yarbrough]

How does Marillion there even make sense? Why would they even bother to name him? I’m not questioning you, I’m just asking generally. The whole purpose of Marillion’s miserable existence is to be the fall guy (LOL), no?

Ahhh, I missed that it was Marillion - but It honestly does make sense - his sequence in the Vale, singing songs in the Sky Cells while knowing that Littlefinger has committed murder . .

Never made sense to me . . . Littlefinger never would have allowed a witness to live like that, with a tongue . . .

So, I expect the Eyrie scenes to be rewritten without him as the fall guy . … only Sansa will know the truth.

That may be what they mean by making those scenes ‘easier’

So no talk about our first looks at Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen? At least I assume we saw all three. The short-haired man in the middle in the cart scene seems to have filed teeth. The longer-haired man seems to have nose damage but it’s definitely not missing so I’m guessing maybe they changed him a bit. And the hooded man has to be Jaqen, right?

I was actually surprised that they revealed the Wall bound prisoners - they’ve scrupulously avoided showing glimpses of Stannis, Melisandre, Greyjoy, etc. - I was surprised that they cast those characters and revealed them.

[Incendiary_Lemon]

Meh, to me it felt like they were returning to their traditional sexposition model of dumping background information on the viewer, just with “restrained” nudity in place of episode 7’s silliness.

I think it was an attempt to subvert your expectations. I certainly went into the scene expecting another plot dump but then what he was saying kicked in, it wasn’t background information at all he’s actually lying to Ros.

What’s great about that rambling sequence is no matter who questions her or who she reports to, there’s something in there for them to like.

Great point.

[Trey]

I know it’s not actually spot-on. We see Ros’s bush once without seeing her boobs (when Theon sees her leaving the north on a cart), and the Doreah/Viserys scene is a boob scene that doesn’t really advance the plot (it’s sexposition as someone so handily coined the phrase).

[Mouzone]

So I got a $50 gc from amazon and I was thinking of getting the audiobook mp3 of dance of dragons. However there doesn’t seem to be an mp3 version available for sale - they only have a CD version as far as I can find. Does anyone know how audiobook mp3 sales work? Do they only go on sale after the book is published? I don’t really want to wait long after the book is released for it to go on sale? Should I just pre-order the Audio CD now and deal with the ripping CDs or will there be a good chance that a digital format will be available on July 12th?

Also what pricing should I expect for the mp3 version around the same as the CDs or is there any significant discount? The Audio CDs now are about$30 off I just hope they don’t list the mp3s at full price.

[Rywill]

Interesting (and perhaps sound) decision: they didn’t externalize the “He’s given Jaime up as lost/dead” line that Tyrion thinks when Tywin calls him his son and appoints him acting hand.

The way they played it, it’s possible they’re changing Tywin from the book. It’s possible that when he says he always blew off Tyrion as a fool and now realizes Tyrion is a good strategist (getting out of the Aerie, co-opting the hill clans, and now hearing his take on stuff during strategy sessions), he is telling the truth. It’ll be interesting to see what they do with it next season, whether they play it as “Tywin was just stroking Tyrion’s ego because he needs to repair relations now that Jaime is lost” or “Tywin genuinely appreciates Tyrion now.”

Overall I thought it was a great final episode. It’s one of the first ones where there was really nothing about it I didn’t like. Looking at season 1 as a whole, I feel the same way about as I did about LOTR: there are some things I didn’t like and choices I wish they hadn’t made, but lots of parts of it were great and overall it’s about as good an adaptation as anyone could really hope for. I can’t wait for season 2.

[AlanSmithee]

I was interested to see some of the changes from the book (which I’ve only just finished reading). The development as Pycelle as a schemer was interesting since the books didn’t show him as being much of a player (beyond being a Lannister creature).
I was also surprised to see Cersei bedding Lancel, turning her into an incestuous slut rather than someone with narcissist issues. (Though her offer to sleep with Eddard in the book left no doubt about her morality.)
It was a great series and I’m looking forward to seeing the next season. It brings back memories of watching The Fellowship of the Ring and the pleasant anticipation of a show that you know will be well done.

[Trey]

WHOOPS