I expect the DVDs for Season 1 by November, in time for the holiday shopping season.

Doubtful. HBO usually releases DVDs/BD right before the next season premieres. True Blood’s S3 just came out in the end of May for example.

You begin to see Cersei’s ineptitude in CoK, where Tyrion outwits her at nearly every move. I wonder how well that will come through in the show, a lot of it comes from Tyrion’s thoughts and commentary.

On re-reading, that’s not the main thing I got out of those sections. Rather, it was how Tyrion was every bit as guilty of focusing on petty power grab bullshit as she was. No matter how you slice it, his actions at Joffrey’s wedding are inexplicable, and that’s just the decorative portion of his bad decisions.

I’ll give you one thing, you consistently bring very odd interpretations.

Cersei’s mistakes are obvious. Tyrion’s aren’t, but they’re there and add another layer to his character (which matches up nicely with his equally fallible but superficially unstoppable father). So I like to pay attention to the things that are different now that I’m not distracted by narrative tension.

Perhaps we might split up these failings of Tyrion into categories?

I do agree that re-reading sometimes casts an odd light, favourably or unfavourably, and Tyrion, as one of the whiter-hatted characters sometimes gets morally revised downward because of that. (His part in Tysha’s rape, whatever the circumstances, his casually utilitarian attitude to Shae fairly often, certainly his (spoiler alert) killing of her in the Tower of the Hand. I may be fogetting some. Call that “Character blemishes.”

I hadn’t really looked at the idea of “petty motivations;” I mean he’s ambitious and wants power, but in considerable measure I read his efforts at intrigue as being self-preservation, the attitude of an anti-Ned trying to secure himself against almost certainly malevolent intentions and the very suspect power of Littlefinger. I may be overlooking things you’ve noticed.

Lastly one might talk about “cases where he screws up,” plans poorly, etc, and the results are costly for him or others. I’m thinking in a vague sense that he probably did this a number of times - but then he’s human, so what’s the big deal really?

What actions at the wedding were you referring to exactly?

I should state these have nothing to do with how much I like a character, and are only a partial accounting since I’m not really focusing on his virtues, of which there are many. Either way, you’re absolutely right that mistakes is a poor choice of words for a complicated set.

I think the entire Tysha/Shae thing is something that I initially took as “oh this tells us why Tyrion is so bitter” which I’ve now modified as “Still makes Tywin a monster/hypocrite, but fairly unflattering to Tyrion since he is so focused on self-pity when it’s really the women who paid a tremendous price for being with him”. In particular, I think of what I initially saw as a crime of passion (killing Shae) as more of coolly deliberate act of settling accounts, namely because of how Martin describes how it happens.

I hadn’t really looked at the idea of “petty motivations;” I mean he’s ambitious and wants power, but in considerable measure I read his efforts at intrigue as being self-preservation, the attitude of an anti-Ned trying to secure himself against almost certainly malevolent intentions and the very suspect power of Littlefinger. I may be overlooking things you’ve noticed.

Well, I’d have to look back at the sections but I remember thinking early on when Tywin chastises him for his snarking that, actually, dad is right on there,and that’s what clued me in to that line of thought. Throughout his time as Hand, Cersei’s motivations are so clear and easy to work around (since they both should want to keep the throne more or less intact) that you’d have to be blind not to notice. I don’t think it would be reasonable to expect her to ever trust Tyrion 100% simply because as a mother and as an independent ambitious/somewhat deluded actor, she’s got her own agenda.

But there are opportunities for him to recognize that her paranoia is at least somewhat legitimate and re-channel it into something productive, the kind of thing a Hand should do. Instead, he sees his role early on as countering her, and quickly falls into this petty Lannister vs. Lannister feud with a tremendous amount of effort devoted to fighting what could have been a perfectly avoidable foe, and even an ally in the loose sense that it’s better to have your kin on the throne than a stranger when you’re someone who is universally despised as a default position. Since he’s the replaceable one as Hand and leftover sibling, and Cersei for better or worse is holding the strongest cards in the Lannister hand, he’s not accurately gauging the importance of not antagonizing her needlessly or for points that don’t mean anything in the end score.

Lastly one might talk about “cases where he screws up,” plans poorly, etc, and the results are costly for him or others. I’m thinking in a vague sense that he probably did this a number of times - but then he’s human, so what’s the big deal really?

Yeah, those are of the least concern to me. In the aggregate, he’s one of the better decisionmakers in the game, but he’s never concerned enough about defusing the vendettas that people build against him (especially Cersei and to a lesser extent Joffrey), even when they are obviously imperiling his life.

What actions at the wedding were you referring to exactly?

I meant specifically the dumping out of the wine after being the cup-bearer, which makes him look guilty as hell to any witness given the cause-effect approach to criminal investigation we’ve seen throughout the series.

Anyway, I’ll try to gin up some specifics for the above later, but that’s the overall impression with which I tempered my original view of Tyrion of someone who was wronged into murderous exile. I still miss the guy and I definitely understand why he offed Tywin in the end, it just seemed like a preventable set of circumstances that landed him at that point.

Agreed.

In particular, I think of what I initially saw as a crime of passion (killing Shae) as more of coolly deliberate act of settling accounts, namely because of how Martin describes how it happens.

I could go either way on that; Tyrion’s mental state after he finds out about Tysha is a bit of an unknown variable, (even taking into account his DwD preview chapter) and he and Jaime sometimes have “unreliable POV” where their “apparent” thinking is belied by their actions.

Throughout his time as Hand, Cersei’s motivations are so clear and easy to work around (since they both should want to keep the throne more or less intact) that you’d have to be blind not to notice. I don’t think it would be reasonable to expect her to ever trust Tyrion 100% simply because as a mother and as an independent ambitious/somewhat deluded actor, she’s got her own agenda.

Yeah, but he heads into the place with the not unreasonable, I’d say probably accurate idea that she’s nasty, unpredictable, and potentially a serious threat to his life. He makes all of the more serious peace overtures (whereas one of Cersei’s is just a setup for her revenge for Tommen and Myrcella being “stolen” to safety) And it seems like that’s the point of departure; when she punishes Alayaya and steps on the Tysha third rail he loses patience with the same way he did with Joff: as a shitty evil family member to whom he only has the barest familial duties towards (which is obviously still a great deal more than one can say for Cersei). It is a view that comes from having Tyrion’s PoV for these events and not re-figuring it all from a hypothetical sane-Cersei perspective, but crazed bonkers Cersei and her apparent anti-Tyrion prophecy since youth doesn’t do a lot to convince me that he could’ve worked that relationship better.

I meant specifically the dumping out of the wine after being the cup-bearer, which makes him look guilty as hell to any witness given the cause-effect approach to criminal investigation we’ve seen throughout the series.

He thinks about Sansa (and her absense) before upending the cup; that can be read as either a really stupid/hasty attempt to conceal evidence or cover for his wife, but he just realizes he’s poured wine his wife has poisoned for the king. If his action hadn’t been observed, he’d perhaps have destroyed the evidence of the poisoning he’d just figured out; since he was observed, it was even worse than being caught having poured poisoned wine “unawares.” IMO, bit of a “think fast, drunk man!” situation.

So… wasn’t this thread supposed to be spoiler free for the people who haven’t read the books?

Cause those last two posts basically ran all the way to the end of the third book and told all the major events.

Whatever gave you that idea??
Better head over to the other HBO thread for that!

The title of the first post of this thread, unfortunately, is “Game of Thrones (HBO) - PLOT/SPOILER FREE”.

Three years ago… 78 pages later, it’s full of discussion of the books and a Spoiler Free titled thread was started.

I think that Tyrion is effectively unhinged by the time he kills Shae. He’s been abandoned by the gods (he was innocent, but his trial-by-combat victory was snatched away at the last second), he was just informed that the brother that he idolizes betrayed him in the worst way he could have imagined (which incidentally leads him to the sickening conclusion that he both betrayed someone he loved and then participated in her rape), and then he is confronted both with the double-betrayal of the woman he loves and the astounding hypocrisy of his father. I can’t think of anything he does thereafter as “cool” or “calculated”, no matter how the prose reads.

[Re: Whether Tyrion was acting selfishly when he was Hand]

I’m actually with LK on this one. My initial read was that he was treated unfairly by everyone during his reign as Hand and after the Blackwater, and that is certainly true to an extent. However, on my recent re-read it is very apparent that his self-pity and the disdain that he feels for his sister (and the hatred she has for him) caused him to see everything in a very skewed manner, and that caused him to act selfishly both before and especially after the battle.

It’s not just that he could have gotten his way without causing Cersai so much embarrassment and harm (he almost certainly could have), the real clincher came when he woke up from his wound and started to see everyone and everything as a part of a wide-ranging plot against him - from the maester caring for him to the perfectly reasonable steps that his father took when he arrived at Kings Landing (dismissing of the wildlings, etc.). At the end, he slips very close to Cersai-levels of paranoia.

Considering his father put him in the front lines during a large battle in the first book and his sister then had a member of the kingsguard try to kill him in the second, I think Tyrion’s mistrust is understandable. I’m hoping Dance doesn’t have him as a bitter, unlikable exile its entire length.

Sure – just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.

Tyrion certainly had good reasons to hate and mistrust his father and sister, but his initially reasonable (and clever) maneuverings around Cersei soon became less about reigning in Joffrey and more about slighting his sister.

When Tywin arrives in the city and takes his rightful place as Hand, Tyrion is stripped of his power, which is a reasonable step that Tywin would have taken with anyone, not just his dwarf son. If you’re charitable, you might notice that Tywin doesn’t even reprimand Tyrion for Tommen’s kidnapping or any of his other excesses until Tyrion himself demands that his accomplishments be recognized. Even after he is given a prominent place in the Small Council, a pretty wife, and the de facto Lordship over close to half the continent he can’t see past the wrongs that have been done to him and his bitterness that the land he is granted is not the seat that he feels is owed him.

I think that’s being a bit uncharitable to Tyrion; he is jumping at shadows, but Cersei and Joffrey are, at that point, literally threats to his life, if not necessarily immediate ones. We don’t know what the story is with Maester Ballabar, the one he sends away, but his dreamwine vs. milk of the poppy thing doesn’t read like paranoia to me.

And his father’s steps aren’t “reasonable,” or grateful. They’re presented to the reader from Tyrion’s perspective, which heightens our sense of their injustice, but they are unjust. Even Tywin wouldn’t have been so contemptuously callous towards Jaime in the same position.

Tyrion comes off as hypersensitive to those slights, but IMO that was for the purposes of having him and Tywin come into mutually incomprehending conflict as they did, both underestimating one another’s contribution to the blackwater, both expecting more familial loyalty from one another than they seem to get.

Regarding his earlier infighting with Cersei, again: there is a change after Tommen and Myrcella are sent away and Cersei captures Alayaya, thinking she’s “Tyrion’s whore,” has her beaten and threatened, and Tyrion retaliates by promising to visit the same on Tommen. After that there’s really no love, although Tyrion remains rather more loyal “internally.”

Tyrion’s theory. The “mysterious” nature of Mandon Moore makes me think it might be something more complex than that. Littlefinger, perhaps.

I’m hoping Dance doesn’t have him as a bitter, unlikable exile its entire length.

I dunno. I mean it’d be painful in a way given that Tyrion has been one of the more likable characters, but now that Tywin Lannister no longer exists it may be necessary to create him.

I agree with this, and I wish I had articulated it as clearly… “hypersensitive” is a good adjective. Though it wasn’t until my second read-through that I was able to see Tywin in such a charitable light.

I do still think that Tywin’s sending Tyrion’s personal forces away and stripping him of his power was a logical thing for the new(ish) Hand to do. Tywin is the type of guy that does not tolerate rivals if he can at all help it. He (in my view) expected Tyrion to accept his place as Master of Coin and be a good soldier, like Kevan.

Tywin’s one of my favourite characters. I see few realpolitik reasons for some of Twyin’s housekeeping, more that he’s, as always, blithely indifference to / ignorance of anyone else’s “input” into how he runs his kingdom. He expects everyone to be Kevan. GRRM seems to be big on the “people talking past each other” / “misunderstandings turn into hatreds” type of conflict: I thought the Tyrion / Tywin one was well-done that way, whereas other times it can seem a bit contrived to me.

A factor we haven’t mentioned up to now is that Cersei and Tyrion both seem to be getting their drink on from CoK forward (even by aSoIaF’s boozy standards).

Very good points along with the above. I think Tywin tends to have the veneer of realpolitik to his decisions, but some of them really are the kind of irrational jerkiness that we see in its mutant form in Cersei. Again, something I had to reread to pay attention to.

A factor we haven’t mentioned up to now is that Cersei and Tyrion both seem to be getting their drink on from CoK forward (even by aSoIaF’s boozy standards).

Yeah, and Martin goes out of his way to mention how Cersei is gaining weight. I wasn’t sure where he was going with that (or, god help us, the penis envy sex scenes), if anywhere, but the drinking is pretty hardcore at that point.