3961

This was my only explanation for the changes to Jon Snow, to give him more of a ‘growth’ arc into heroism . . .

However, for me, his Kobayashi Maru moment was in the forest, when he was attempting to join Robb, surrounded by his fellow brothers, preventing him. That was the moment when he became the Man of the night’s watch for me (reinforced, educated and guided by the Old Bear’s words of wisdom.)

From then on, I saw Jon as making the tough, right choices, and being heroic.

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I kinda like Jon this way. He has had most of his life decided for him due to his birth and his belief in following the rituals and roles assigned to his position. He is a contrast to the Bastard of Bolton, who I am sure will make an interesting counterpoint to Jon as that story unfolds. The Bastard of Bolton usurps all norms of bastard decency.

Anyway, Jon, as he stands now, lets himself be pushed around by others all the time while trying to do the right thing. The right thing is often also the dumb thing. The next season we’ll see Jon tested and broken down (along with a few others, as we know!) and rebuilt (kinda happens to all the major characters (who don’t die) if you think about it).

As he finds himself we’ll have this awesome character who has really grown in interesting ways and we’ll see it unfold in slowish time. I never really bought the forest conversion, that was just Jon balancing his perception of what his honour demanded he do. What will be fun to see is Jon deciding for himself what is Right and Good and sometimes what is Required.

I also think if he was Super Jon already he would just seem weird and off-key compared to the events happening in the rest of the world. No one is that super hero, and when he is all super hero in the books… I dunno… always felt a bit odd. At least in the books he was surrounded with normal people trying to make do. Brought it back to earth.

I also can’t wait for Dany to have her “moment”, which was always, for me, stealing the unsullied. Hopefully they can do something with books 4 and 5.

3963

A man has mixed feeling towards all these changes. A man thinks Weiss and Benioff should tread carefully.

The good : Arya. I am not alone when I say that Arya’s story arc has been greatly improved by the addition of Tywin Lannister and the reduction of her interaction with other minor characters. Jaqen is obviously pivotal to the story and I like what they’re doing with that, but the scenes where she and Tywin play off one another have been fantastic and help really define the character in a much shorter amount of time than her book story arc took. When Tywin said Arya reminded him of his daughter last night it was a perfect fit for the story and the character. A+ on these changes.

The Bad : What is happening with Jon Snow? I suppose now that he’s a Wildling prisoner there could still be a showdown with Qhorin provided the Wildlings also capture him, but this change to the order of events really calls into question Jon’s motivations and put him in a much more awkward situation than his counterpart in the books. As some have said, they are making Jon out to be almost stupid, blindly blundering into situations with little thought to what he’s doing or what may happen. That’s not Jon Snow, not even from the start. Also, Ghost is totally absent. Not cool.

The Ugly : Dany, Robb and to a lesser extent Theon. Dany is just off the rails at this point. Xharo proclaiming himself king of Quarth in league with the House of the Undying who have stolen Dany’s dragons and murdered the Thirteen? WTFBBQ?!?!? I get that they need something for Dany to do while the Westeros shit plays out, but this is bordering on ridiculous as it changes everything about the character and creates experiences and motivations for her that simply don’t exist in the original story. With Robb it’s more sense that they’re just fucking with the character to make things more accessible for TV, which is fine I suppose given his ultimate fate anyway. Theon I’m on the fence about. A lot has been cut, but it also feels more streamlined and you can actually see some of the desperation emerging that didn’t come out in the books until much later. That’s not a bad thing honestly.

In summary, I’m not a book purist and I realize that things need to be trimmed, changed and sometimes conveyed in simpler terms for TV audiences (and budgets). Some of the changes I like, and a couple I’ve really enjoyed. Arya and Tyrion, my two favorite characters from the books, have been superbly written and acted in the series, and Jaime looks to be getting similar treatment for as few scenes as he’s been in thus far. But the changes to some of the other major and mid-major characters really have me wondering how it will affect things doen the road. When you change a character’s motivations and experiences it then becomes difficult to justify later actions and decisions that would have been born of those original motivations and experiences. It’s going to be a tricky situation for Weiss and Benioff and their writing staff. I hope they can pull it off.

3964

That was my reaction as well. The Dany storyline is completely wacky now. I think her storyline ultimately winds up the most boring one later on, but at this point in the books, she’s got some good growth moments and beats that would’ve stood up fine on their own. Changing Xaro into a total villain seems at odds with her journey. Obviously, we’re going to end up with her at the tower getting the prophecy, but they’ve gone nuts with killing off her retinue.

The changes to Jon’s arc aren’t devastating to me because at this point, I can still see how things will play out to get Jon where we need him to go. Reversing things so Jon gets to banter with Ygritte before the Half-hand goes out is okay. I think it works better on TV anyway because it allows Jon to build some feelings with Ygritte before he has to betray his own morals which otherwise would logically just make him hate her. This makes his conflicted feeling a bit more believable. If the price is depicting him as a bumbler for a bit longer that’s okay.

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I think we can’t overemphasize the budget aspect here.

In summary, I felt that last night was spent primarily on characters talking with each other (cheap). Often inside of tents or corridors (cheap)

And the changes in Qarth allow them to film an entire season without CGI dragons eating the budget - saving money for Blackwater (I hope).

In further analysis of last night.

Jeyne is hesitant to head to the Crag - perhaps she is truly Jeyne Westerling of the Crag and that will be revealed - her acting last night was good and supports that.

I anticipate the wildlings will have captured Quorin halfhand, allowing Jon to turn his cloak.

I really miss Ghost in the entire Jon Snow sequence.

3966

Disagree. The Qarth stuff has been woeful this season… and actually most all of Dany’s scenes have been poorly acted, sparsely appointed set-wise, and generally crappily directed.

However the final couple scenes, despite some unconvincing acting from Emilia Clarke, was pretty good. The Warlock was particularly creepy and menacing, and we got to see some actual magic here and there from him; something we don’t really get from him in the book. Xaro is also much more interesting in his new incarnation as a ruthless would-be king than he was as the weeping suitor in the books. At this point the only thing I miss from the book’s version of Qarth is the bared-breast fashions.

But even though I liked this week’s Qarth stuff, the direction and acting was still damned weak compared to the Westros stuff. I know that the North-of-the-Wall stuff is being done by a different crew in Iceland; is the Qarth stuff a third unit somewhere away from the main Croatian base? Everything from the framing to the lighting to the set and costume design feels “cheap” compared to the indoor locations in, say, Harranhal.

Some of that might be a conscious stylistic choice - making the other continent stuff feel less gritty and more “otherworldly” by shooting outdoor scenes on a sound-stage. But that doesn’t explain the poor acting. We know that Emilia Clarke can do better - we saw plenty good stuff last season.

A man is disappoint.

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I’m not sure how I feel about the warlock’s magic, didn’t seem to jive very well with GRRM’s world and how almost all magic is kept off-stage. Pretty powerful stuff killing 11 people simultaneously like that, in broad daylight, and in front of witnesses. And without a horse’s throat to slit. :/

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Yeah except for the smoke monsters, face dancers, people who can’t burn, dead men walking and the zombies and all that shit :p

— Alan

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FWIW, as I understand it, Episode 9 is all Blackwater. In fact, in the episode summaries that HBO sent out, Episode 9’s summary is only one sentence. All 19 other episodes to date have had paragraph summaries, with a sentence for each of the various major plots. (eg; Tyrion visits the Wall, Ned arrives in Kings Landing, Bran tries to remember pre-fall, etc, etc.)

3970

On this we are agreed.

I can totally see your point on the Quarth changes. It does make both Pyatt Pree and Xharo (or however they’re spelled) more interesting, but it comes (I think) at the cost of Dany’s development as a character.

Dany, Jon and Arya are the three sympathetic characters throughout the story. These are the characters’ whose shoes we are supposed to imagine ourselves in, and whom we are supposed to feel the most empathy. While it could be argued that Tyrion and even Jaime might deserve similar status, Arya, Jon and Dany are unquestionably the focal points of the developing plotlines. That said, Dany’s development through the books was from scared exile girl who dreamed only of returning to the house with the red door to the Mother of Dragons, a queen who felt not only a need to reclaim a throne that was her family’s by right but also to protect those who had come to belive in her and rely on her to lead them, takes a long time and is influenced by many events. This stuff with Quarth feels like jumping the gun. It feels like they are trying to make Dany in Quarth into the Dany we see far later on, strong, vindictive and vengeful, but without all the cumulative experiences that lead her to that point in her development. She’s not going to be able to leave Quarth now without not only destroying the House of the Undying, but killing Xharo for his part in the whole thing as well, and that changes who she is and what motivates the character.

Obviously it’s all a moot point if they plan on totally cutting her journey through the slave cities later on. If they do that, it would be a HUGE departure from the character’s development and I’m not sure how you can reconcile that with events in the story down the road. I’m curious to see where they go with it though.

3971

I like your logic and I think you make some excellent, cogent points. The fact that you are disastrously wrong should not fill you with an excess of shame.

Joking aside, I just don’t think there was too much growth for Dany in Clash of Kings. There were only five Daenerys chapters (contrasted with fifteen for Tyrion and even seven for Bran) and in those the character growth was pretty sparse. If anything the show-runners are trying to add more filler so that we get some Dany in each episode, not accelerating the story.

The first couple chapters she suffers in the desert and learns little she didn’t already get after Drogo was killed. She learns that being a magical leader who can’t provide the basic necessities for her people pretty much blows goats. The last three chapters have her rattling around Qarth being treated as special not for what she has done, but for what she happens to have (dragons), and she learns that people want to exploit her for that. The end of the book has her fleeing Qarth because the Warlocks are annoyed at her for the whole killing everyone thing, and Xaro has cooled to her as well.

All she learns from Qarth (aside from the prophesy) is that having a mystical birthright is all well and good, but you can’t expect people to just fall over themselves to shower you with the power you need. they are much more likely to treat you as a pawn in their games.

Assuming we get the whole prophesy thing next week, the season could end in a very similar way: the warlocks are pissed off and Xaro, shorn of his supernatural support and rebuffed in another marriage proposal, kicks her out of the city. For character-building lessons, I think she learns the same stuff.

As an aside, I’m interested in how (if at all) they try to hide who Arstan is from the audience.

3972

Haha! Best response ever, I laughed out loud, and that’s a genuine laugh out loud, not a LOL! =)

I agree with you that the idea is to give her screentime, and I even concede that the end results will likely be the same, House of the Undying burns and Xaro scorned. I’m just not thrilled with the way they are getting there, though it certainly is entertaining since unlike a lot of the story we literally don’t know what will happen next during her segments.

I too wonder about Arstan. For a split second I thought it might have been him last night guarding the door to her quarters, but then it was just the older bloodrider guy shown briefly in a previous episode.

3973

All you non-book readers need to really get out of this thread and into the nonspoiler thread, cause it’s about to get really spoilery in a sec.

If you watch the “Inside the Episode” clips that HBO puts out after every episode, this year is about Dany learning about self-reliance. She just can’t show up with dragons and expect everyone to give everything to her, which has been her attitude so far this season.

Meanwhile, GRRM has already turned in his episode for next season, and it may actually not require a rewrite to scale it down (Titled Autumn Storms. You can probably imagine what that one has. It’s episode 7, btw). Casting has begun, but he’s too busy to do the casting clues.

Who are we going to need?

  1. Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr. These two seem required for the plot, plus the fact that the Brotherhood without Banners actually got called out. And we already had Beric called out in Season 1.

  2. Lem Lemoncloak, Anguy the Archer, and Tom of Sevenstreams and the other assorted members of the Brotherhood without Banners. - As much as I like these characters, odds are they get consolidated into one or just replaced with anonymous bandits. But I do think they show the smallfolk perspective, which has been largely glossed over.

  3. The Red Viper - He’s the character who brings Dorne into the picture, seems necessary for the plot, and he’s just too badass to omit. But do they wait until Season 4? It’d be cooler to bring him as early as possible to build up the legend/reputation.

  4. The Tullys - They’ve pretty much ignored Riverrun and all the riverlords so far, which is a shame. While Edmund is needed for the Red Wedding, I’m starting to see a scenario where he could be omitted. The Blackfish looks like he’s cut. Hoster is about to die, anyway.

  5. The Reeds - The hope of the Reeds showing up grows dimmer and dimmer, especially since Bran got Jojen’s greendream. Having them stumble upon Bran while on the run really sounds really contrived. Odds are they’re out.

  6. Arstan and Co. - Arstan seems like a given, especially since they’ve been bringing up Barristan the Bold again in the series. But do we get Strong Belwas? Cool, fun character, but I imagine he gets the Shagga/Pod treatment. (A short glimpse, and then nothing else.)

  7. Unsullied - Dany buying her army seems like a pretty good climactic point to end her story next season, though that would require a lot of foot dragging to wait till the end. Maybe she gets her Unsullied midway through the season and she ends by sacking a slave city?

  8. The Queen of Thorns - Highgarden becomes a bigger player, and she’s too awesome to omit. Maggie Smith would be ideal, but availability is an issue, especially since she wants out of Downton Abbey because (I suspect) she wants to retire.

Anyone else I’m missing?

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Rumor is they are already looking at a Tormund Giantsbane:

They will also likely need some more of Mance Rayder’s court.

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Of course I forgot Mance. We’re obviously getting him.

What about also Dalla and Val? Dalla/Mance’s kid plays an important plot role, though not incredibly important. And Val also. Could they consolidate the two?

Then there’s all the wildling leaders. We’re getting Rattleshirt this week. Figure there’s gotta be a few more, unless Rattleshirt leads the assault group against Castle Black.

Varamyr seems like a possibility, as he’s an actual skinchanger. They’re toying around with Warging, but who better than an actual warg?

Pretty safe to say we won’t be getting Mag the Mighty or Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun, and I imagine Wun Weg’s role will somehow be rewritten.

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Beric and Thoros will be “in”.

  1. Lem Lemoncloak, Anguy the Archer, and Tom of Sevenstreams and the other assorted members of the Brotherhood without Banners. - As much as I like these characters, odds are they get consolidated into one or just replaced with anonymous bandits. But I do think they show the smallfolk perspective, which has been largely glossed over.

Tom of Sevens, “in”, the others extras.

  1. The Red Viper - He’s the character who brings Dorne into the picture, seems necessary for the plot, and he’s just too badass to omit. But do they wait until Season 4? It’d be cooler to bring him as early as possible to build up the legend/reputation.

In

  1. The Tullys - They’ve pretty much ignored Riverrun and all the riverlords so far, which is a shame. While Edmund is needed for the Red Wedding, I’m starting to see a scenario where he could be omitted. The Blackfish looks like he’s cut. Hoster is about to die, anyway.

Out. All gone.

  1. The Reeds - The hope of the Reeds showing up grows dimmer and dimmer, especially since Bran got Jojen’s greendream. Having them stumble upon Bran while on the run really sounds really contrived. Odds are they’re out.

They are out.

  1. Arstan and Co. - Arstan seems like a given, especially since they’ve been bringing up Barristan the Bold again in the series. But do we get Strong Belwas? Cool, fun character, but I imagine he gets the Shagga/Pod treatment. (A short glimpse, and then nothing else.)

Arstan in, Belwas might be a walk-on. But even in the books, he is a bait and switch to provide cover for Arstans’ identity. GoT can’t fool viewers with that.

  1. Unsullied - Dany buying her army seems like a pretty good climactic point to end her story next season, though that would require a lot of foot dragging to wait till the end. Maybe she gets her Unsullied midway through the season and she ends by sacking a slave city?

In, of course. Greyworm will be the only one who really talks. Missandei will probably be left in for exposition purposes, then she fades.

  1. The Queen of Thorns - Highgarden becomes a bigger player, and she’s too awesome to omit. Maggie Smith would be ideal, but availability is an issue, especially since she wants out of Downton Abbey because (I suspect) she wants to retire.

I think the Queen of Thorns is OUT. They don’t need her. She’s a stand-in so that Margaery can be young and innocent and not get her hands dirty in the books. GoT Margaery is a COMPLETE change to the character. Sure as hell not innocent, and does not need the Queen of Thorns. She’s out.

Anyone else I’m missing?

Various wildlings in the Court of the King Beyond the Wall. We’ll have a few of em, but mostly Tormund, Rattleshirt, Mance and Ygritte. Mance will have a wife, but she doesn’t have to do much other than sit there. Same for Val – if they ever bother to give her a name.

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Quick thoughts:

The Mountain’s actor is trying too hard to sound gruff and manly.

Jaime trolling Cat is oddly satisfying.

Maester Luwin’s “Nooooooooo” is best one ever.

Oona Chaplin, I can’t take my eyes off of you when you are on screen.

3978

I keep thinking they’re going to have to have some kind of Brave Companions. It might not be Vargo Hoat, but the Brave Companions all tie into Jaime’s maiming, as well as bringing in Qyburn, who’s needed for Cersei’s “champion.”

3979

Don’t you mean the Hound?

3980

The new Mountain isn’t anything like he should be…way too skinny and wimpy looking to me. Conan Stevens from season 1 was perfectly awesome.