4381

I think that, for something that doesn’t bear on quality storytelling, likeability has a very high profile. But Davos, Brienne, Catelyn, Ned, Arya, Shae, Tyrion, Ygritte, Grenn, the slimmer one with the goatee who hangs out with Grenn, and Lady Olenna all qualify as likeable.

4382

Davos, Arya, Tyrion, Jamie, Lady Olenna… hell, what about the Hound?

4383

I think that, for something that doesn’t bear on quality storytelling, likeability has a very high profile.

Yeah, I don’t really get the supposed need for TV shows (or books) to have likeable characters.

4384

House of Cards is a perfect example of that.

4385

I like to see compelling characters, and characters don’t need to be likeable to be compelling. This show is full of compelling characters. There are all these plotters and schemers, but also the relatively innocent people caught up in events beyond their control, and they’re all struggling to survive. It’s like watching an epic chess match, you don’t have to like the players to appreciate the moves they make.

4386

Right. I really like Littlefinger, but I don’t “like him” like him.

4387

You can only say this with ignorance to the medium of TV. Look at the story of them in the books, how do you want to get all of this into a TV series? It would be tiresome, confusing and in the end not more rewarding for the viewer. For example I dare you to give me a summarization of what happens in and around Harrenhall with the Brave Companions and all the other involved factions, it’s really complicated and takes for too much time, even in the books.

4388

It’s really a sub-plot too far.

4389

That’s sad news for me.

I don’t think Tyrion is a likeable character, I think he’s pitiable bordering on contemptible. In a less relentlessly grimdark show I’d expect the wife (who, I’ll grant, is a likeable character) to transmogrify him into a likeable character eventually, but considering the rest of the show I’m going to be more than a little bit surprised if he doesn’t end up murdering wifey in a futile attempt to win Daddy Monster’s approval.

Davos thinks loyalty to his Mad King is more important than setting the world on fire. Literally. The only upside to his character I’m seeing right now, is that his ever so slight pangs of remorse probably means he’ll get horribly murdered pretty soon. A fate I can’t help thinking he’s more than earned.

Brienne isn’t much of a character, I think. She’s “harh-harh she’s the Female Hulk! But here’s the twist, she also has Honour!” Maybe it’s just me, but she strikes me as a stupidly cliché grimdark version of comic relief. I can only assume there’s a lot more to her in the books, but I haven’t read them.

Catelyn is too flakey for me to like her. She hates the Snowy Bastard because it reminds her her dead Ned had a fling. Meanwhile she’s ever-so-nice to the Finger even before Ned’s dead. One of her daughters are a mental case, but oh her offspring’s so important she’ll rather her domain be run into the ground than leave her Real Coma Kid’s side. And then she basically let’s Jamie The Vile go. Sure, with an escort of all of 1 person who’ll totally be able to hand him off to Daddy Monster and… Then what? Get her daughters back? I really doubt that, somehow. Taken in bits and pieces I suppose she’d be likeable enough, but as a whole there’s just too much about the character where you go “well, looking back you have to admit it… Didn’t make any sense at the time either.”

Ned was likeable. He totally sold me on the show. Then his head came off.

Arya is one of those >5ft characters I mentioned. The character is almost as likeable as Ned was, but I fully expect her to grow up to become Evil Incarnate.

Everything about the show seems to be about people turning into monsters, or already being monsters, only to eventually experience some tiny little bit of remorse or regret, only to be pretty much instantly humiliated, debased and horribly murdered. Ned came across as the show’s way of signalling that “as of now, abandon all hope.”

Shae seems like a Ned re-run in the making.

Ygritte like Brienne, isn’t much of a character. At least not yet. Has she done anything but “lookit me, lookit me, I so sexy Mr.Snow” at this point?

Grenn I had entirely forgotten. I don’t know if I’d call him likeable. He’s a very minor character and to me memorable only as a Mr.It Get’s Better to Mr.Roly Poly the Mocked Bird of Self-loathing (vaguely apropos, I realise it’s grimdark so it kind of has to be, but I’m just a little bit tired of the “let’s have a complete mess of a fat guy” trope).

The Hound… Seriously? I’m guessing he must be a very, very different kind of character in the books, because in the show he’s like the definition of a D&D Murder Hobo made grimdark flesh. So utterly that I literally laughed out loud when he was introduced :D

…

I’m sorry, I didn’t actually mean to be all ur show iz teh suxx0rz. Tastes differ & stuffs, and I’m happy you guys love it. Please don’t let my lack of enthusiasm spoil yours. But I guess I maybe needed to talk myself out of watching more of it. My SO is a raving fangirl, so I think a discussion like this would be about as welcome as me peeing on the carpet or something…

Anyway, I think I’ve figured out why likeable characters matter to me in lengthy entertainment when I’m a passive consumer of it: they give me something to care about in a positive way. In AGoT the characters I might care about are either barely in the show at all, or wearing big “Kill Me Now” signs.

In short stories, for example, I don’t mind (often like, even) the absence of likeable characters. I can run on hate & loathing for short bursts without starting to feel bored or miserable. But in the long run I need to be able to invest myself in the characters in some sort of positive way, or I really do get bored or miserable. That’s probably why deeply EMO TTRPGs that are even more relentlessly grimdark than AGoT works fine for me, because I’m positively invested in the characters in ways that have very little to do with how objectionable I find them.

4390

a very narrowminded position, though certanly not uncommon. there are a lot of TV shows for you.

4391

I’m usually the one delivering the minority report on the series, so I have no problem with your points at all, Disconnected. I’ve got a poll question for you: what is your favorite piece of fiction that has very likeable characters as well as character-based conflict? I have noticed that the more likeable a character is, the less dramatic they are, and so conflict comes from the outside in those stories.

4392

I’d agree this is not a show with characters you root for. Sometimes that’s a bad thing, unless there’s another reason to watch them. I think GoT is a perfect example of an alternative type of character.

In this show, the whole point is that the characters are having the rug yanked out from under them on an almost constant basis. How do they cope? Some sink, some swim, some manage to even come out ahead. Then another rug gets yanked and they all scramble again.

Tyrion is a great example. He was sitting pat with whoring and drinking, pitiable? Maybe, though considering the alternative(death) he might expect in such a world, maybe not. Either way, he gets a power position and enjoys it. Now the whoring and drinking are not looking so fulfilling, haha too bad, the rug gets yanked from under him. Now what? Does he go back to his old ways or does he struggle to get back on top? To me that’s a compelling story with a well played character.

4393

I think the show and the books are more about the intrigue and schemes being carried out rather than the characters. Disconnected, there is no way anyone can put forth an argument to make this show appealing to you, since all the inter-relationships and scheming passed you by unnoticed. I recommend you watch that Hercules series from the '90s, or maybe play Dragon Age. I mention those two because they are the exact opposite of what the GoT series is about.

4394

Ned was also kind of an idiot, and not nearly a hard enough man for the world he lived in. He insisted on being the good guy and because of that, a lot of good people died, starting with him.

One of the things I like about this series is that the ‘good’ characters have to be somewhat ruthless. It’s not always clear what the right thing is. It’s not always clear when a ruler can afford to be merciful. You aren’t really making the world a better place if it just leads to your people getting slaughtered. That whole dynamic is why it is hard for a society to move out of this ‘Hobbesian trap’ state.

4395

Ned was a little naive compared to the ruthless cunning of the Lannisters, but idiot? And the world of Winterfell seems far harder than anything to the south of it. Ned had bad luck, and it seems to run in his family.

4396

Yeah, idiot is too strong, and personally chopping off heads does count as hard, in any world. But Ned did decide to give Cersei fair warning of his discovery, just to show us what a good guy he is. This after his predecessor conveniently died immediately after making the same discovery. I think that’s more than a little naive, and more than just bad luck. Ned always acted to maintain his personal honour, which in this case contributed to getting his king killed and plunging the kingdom into war.

4397

I’m sad that you aren’t all members of club HODOR. Obviously the most likeable character in Game of Thrones. He’s loyal, brave, and has the best lines in the show.

4398

Technically it is the “Church of the Bearer”, and we are willing to allow you to join our ranks provided you survive the rigorous rites that will confirm your faith.

Ignore those infidels who call us a “cult”. Pfah!

4399

I’d say idiot is accurate. He had power soley because of the king, once the king died Ned was one of the most vulnerable people in town, being from the north and all. This made his kids even more vulnerable. So what does he do? Tell everyone his plans, plans for which he has no support of his own, and the people he’s telling all have their power base in the south while he does not.

Bad luck doesn’t run in that family, they make their own luck. Already the mom has undercut her son’s position in his own army, but that’s not such a big deal when the son himself has done something that caused a chunk of his army to leave. This was all the result of deliberate choice, not luck. Sansa maybe, there’s a Stark who just drifts where ever luck takes her. All the other Starks though are making choices.

4400

I actually agree with most of your assessments. Although, I’d say that Tyrion grows on you, at least in the first three books (haven’t gotten so far in the TV show). He’s the sort of character where I think one could make a strong case for him being a very likeable person, given a different upbringing and family.

Ned and Rob are likeable enough, IMO (or has Rob done any nasty deeds yet? I don’t seem to remember any). Though both being total idiots at times kind of makes it hard to really root for them. Sometimes, it feels like the series is really about good people doing a lot of really idiotic things.

I agree entirely with your assessment of Catelyn. And unlike Ned or Rob, she’s not even a particularly nice person to make up for her fits of idiocy.

What’s wrong with Jon Snow, though? I’m still working through the first season, and it’s been a while since I read the books, but from my recollection, he comes the closest to being the “hero” of the SOFAI.

I think if the books have a theme, it is that of people being put into desperate situations in the midst of a colossal power struggle. Martin’s unique twist is that he allows the setting to be somewhat realistic, which means that the “good guys” must either find their inner monster, or the monsters will come out on top (only to be torn down every so often by others). Saints don’t make it to the presidency in the real world - and it’s not likely to happen in Game of Thrones either.