It’s not surprising that Tywin doesn’t care much for his children. They must be a disappointment to him.
Despite his gifts, Jaimie hasn’t done anything great that redounds to the family name, in fact in a way has brought dishonour (“Kingslayer”), Cersei keeps mucking things up with her machinations (not as clever as she thinks she is). Jaimie and Cersei have an incestuous relationship, which could bring dishonour on the family name if revealed for certainty, and their union has produced a troublesome monster. Tyrion killed his wife at birth, is a dwarf, whores, etc.
I mean, it’s pretty clear that Tywin has strong moral views, and all his children go against them in some way. The only thing that keeps it all going is his sense of honour that they are, after all, his children, and they are, after all, his family, and they are the only thing he has to work with to keep the family name going into the future.
You can see where he’s coming from, given his conservative, stick-in-the-mud moral views.
I think Tywin in the series is a much more interesting character than Tywin in the books actually - probably because they got such a superb actor to play him, they’ve taken advantage of that, and made him a bit more fleshed out than he is in the books (e.g. those wonderful exchanges between him and Arya in the last season).
I think Arya was the first person in the series he actually respected.
Hugin
4563
Tywin is certainly evil. He’s just not generally evil+ sadistic or evil+ out of control emotionally or evil+ stupid, so he comes off better than a lot of his evil peers.
Not so sure he is “evil” as much as he is completely, totally selfish in the pursuit of power for his family and his family name.
Also, I think he is disappointed in his children because they all have failings that are the opposite of his failings. Tywin’s main motivation is family selfishness - propelling the family name forward into power for generations.
His children all have the failing of personal selfishness - they let their personal base desires get in the way of the greater good of the family. Basically, he wants them to have discipline, and they don’t.
Hugin
4565
I don’t see how complete selfishness isn’t by definition evil, especially since it means the death of other human beings in this context.
How is Tywin selfish? Everything he does he does for the power and continuity of the family, not for himself. There are many selfish characters in ASOIAF (e.g. Theon, who’s totally self-centred) but I don’t think you can count Tywin as one of them.
He’s uncaring, but that’s not the same thing.
Hugin
4567
I’m not sure there’s a meaningful difference between “Tywin” and “Family”, or at least his conception of ideal family (which his actual family rarely meets). You can’t call the actions he takes “altruistic” or “charitable”.
In this worlds reality Tywin isn’t evil. This world isn’t the same as ours.
Tywin uses catspaws to have the most heinous crimes in Westerosi society committed. Women raped, children murdered, sacred customs violated. He doesn’t do these acts themselves, he just uses his wealth and power to have them done by others. I would say in GRRM’s world that’s pretty damn evil.
Hugin
4570
I don’t see how this world is different from ours in a way that would change the definition of evil. In the GoT world, people still fall in love, get married, fall out of love, get jealous, cheat on each other with other lovers, visit prostitutes, make bastards which are considered a fact of life but not super great, get drunk, gamble, disappoint their parents, make their parents proud, resent siblings they think are loved more, enjoy wearing nice clothes, enjoy eating good food, resent being disrespected, want to get paid for their work, etc etc etc. These people aren’t Daleks or Vulcans, they’re humans set in a fantasy version of the War of the Roses.
Now, I think Tywin (the TV version at least) is cool as hell. He’s super smart, he cuts through the bullshit, he’s disciplined, and as I noted above, he’s not a sadist, or (much of) a compulsive bully, or literally crazy, which means he’s better than the mostest evilest of the GoT evil lineup. But “Not as bad” as Joffrey or Northguy McDaughterfucker or Shadowcrotch the Burninator isn’t the same as “Good”.
Definitely not “charitable”, but “altruistic”? Better than “selfish”. He’s dedicated to, and gives his whole life to, the perpetuation of the family name, which concretely means, his children and his children’s children, and their children, down through time, will have a good life, a powerful life. It’s just that the “circle of affections” in which his altruism plays, is very, very tiny (i.e. just said family). He is, precisely, a strong kin altruist in the biological sense, but he has no wider sense of humanity.
Some people will do anything and everything for their children or close friends or clan, but cut up a stranger without a second thought. The whole trick to our moral evolution has been widening that circle of affections and getting people to see the common element they share with others, and leveraging that natural kin altruistic impulse.
You could say he was selfish if he viewed his family as a reflection of himself - e.g. if he took the failure of his family to do x personally, as an insult to him. There are people like that, but he’s not that sort of person.
I always love it when people discuss imaginary people :)
Hugin
4572
See, if this isn’t the case, then I really don’t understand his treatment of Tyrion.
Tywin seems to possess a rare intelligence by comparison with other Westerosi nobles. I don’t know if it’s even semi-canonical, but as I recall the official role playing game source material specifies that the nobility in Westeros aren’t necessarily well-educated – a point implicitly supported by the careful attention paid to the education of the Young Aegon in the story itself.
Few other leaders appear to be as far-thinking, and fewer still (Ned Stark and John Aryyn) among them, as expert in staying alive to play the Game of Thrones another day.
Tywin is the ultimate example of efficient tyrant. His major flaw appeared to be the wholly emotional reaction he had to Tyrion, either as a dwarf or for reasons that have been proposed elsewhere, involving spoilers.
Tywin is evil inasmuch as anyone is evil who is seeking an objective at the expense of somebody else, where killing and maiming and ruin are involved. He tolerates and uses, for example, the Man Mountain, Gregor Clegane. He is undoubtedly more dangerous than persons equally ambitions, such as Balon Greyjoy, who was almost farcical in his attitude of other Westerosi. We liked Ned for his honor and his lack of ambition. We like Doran Martell because he is motivated not only by the desire to see his family rise, but also by the more common desire for vengeance. Tywin is also more easily disliked because he is caustic. A nasty attitudes to complement nasty deeds.
Tywin’s family is, in essence, an extension of himself. He is the head of the family, the decision-maker for the family. His life’s mission is the increase in power of his family. Given that is what he wants, and given that he doesn’t seem to care about the thoughts or feelings of anyone to the extent they get in the way of his goal, that seems pretty selfish to me. He is not propelling the family for selfless reasons - the “family” construct is his ego.
How is it that with all these assertions, I haven’t seen a single citation of the books?
Hugin
4576
Personally, I haven’t read the books. I’m speaking purely about the TV show, and with the parenthetical “HBO” in the thread’s title I assume this thread is primarily about the TV show.
Oh, of course. Explains a lot about the comments, too. I was going to post a gruesome amount of spoilers to prove Tywin’s monstrosity, but that stuff hasn’t come up on the show.
Hugin
4578
Hey, I’m on the “Tywin is evil” side. :)
This goes to why I say Tyrion has done alright(not awesomely, but alright) with his father in charge. First off, this IS a superstitious world they live in. Portents and what not count, as well as unexplainable(to them) developments. Tywin may blame Tyrion for his mother’s death, and not just because he’s a dwarf, but because she died giving birth to him. Next, Tywin is working towards the greater good of the Lannisters as a whole, he actually cares where the Lannisters will be far after he’s dead and gone.
Tyrion does not seem to be an asset to helping advance the Lannister cause, in Tywin’s eyes. He can’t be married off to a powerful family in order to build alliances, his wedding to Sansa is only possible by brute forcing it and literally killing everyone in the bride’s family. He can’t lead in battle. Yes he did well in his tricky city defense, but in their world you need to lead in fighting. Here Tyrion would be slaughtered right away and everyone knows it. You can’t get bailed out by your squire or bodyguards every time and command your men’s respect. And Tyrion himself has acted poorly, by frolicing with whores and drinking.
Really, Tywin has put up with a lot of bullshit from all his kids and if he was evil he’d have not done that. He comes off as a meany but he’s got a soft spot for spoiling his kids. He even thinks his grandson can be controlled, that’s how not evil he is. If he was evil Joffrey would either have a grandfather for a torturing partner or he’d be deader than that guy who was killed six times.
Tywin’s good intentions for his family work in his favor only about as much as the good intentions of a tiger mom or a father who pulls out every last stop to make his son the next major league superstar. We forgive him because we know that, in this particular setting, somebody without a meaningful patrimony and a strong political marriage is at a meaningful disadvantage in life. It is also clear that Cersei and Jaime turned out lamentably bad, meaning that we are less averse to the idea that they require drastic “correction.” Nonetheless, Tywin isn’t really any different than Quintus Lentulus Batiatus in Spartacus or Nucky Thompson in Boardwalk Empire: a man who makes decisions that drastically affect the lives of others, and who becomes angry and vindictive when they prove to be real people and not chess pieces.
The great irony, in my opinion, is that, from the perspective of the smallfolk, it would undoubtedly have been easier to be a subject of Casterly Rock than of Winterfell these past several years. Ned Stark, for all his morality, was clearly unsuited to protecting his people once he had to play politics at the highest levels.
Tyrion’s “bad” behavior is hardly out of keeping with the custom of the times. Jaime would undoubtedly have been celebrated for whoring, and it appears that such behavior is or was typical of young men of that rank. Just look at Theon and Asha Greyjoy in Winterfell and Pyke, respectively, or Arianne Martell in Dorne.
Tyrion seems to be a sound tactician, despite his obvious disability. Doran Martell is a competent leader equally stricken by a malady. Hoster Tully, too, was long past his “sell by” date at the start of the story. Tyrion was an effective administrator and politician – an asset as valuable to the realm as Littlefinger.
The “problem” with Tywin – morally speaking – is that, while Ned was ignorant of or powerless to reign in the Boltons, Tywin very directly and unapologetically uses the worst men available to him.
