Right, that’s why I specified “Bart Jr.”. The fact that this is not the same Bart that appeared in, say, Grizzly Adams, doesn’t make the bear’s name any less “Bart”. Now if they had used Honey Bump and cited her as Bart, that would be different and we could get angry and write strongly-worded letters to the show. Very strongly worded.
Razgon
4622
Sorry, I did not see the jr. and only sought to enlighten.
Well you failed! And you hurt my feelings besides. I could hardly see the screen through the tears as I posted my indignant response… <sob>
What part, the crushing of obstacles or the not caring? Robert Baratheon crushed his foes to become king and yet a good guy like Ned Stark was his best pal. So what does that make Baratheon and what does that make Stark for being a friend to that king and helping him achieve that position?
To me it’s much more complicated than being able to just call a guy evil based on cherry picked actions. You need to look at motives and effects on other circumstances. Tywin and Robert, imo, fit into a different category than evil. I think all would-be kings except Ned Stark level pure good guys would have wiped out the Targaryens upon claiming the throne. You have to, it’s part of becoming king by rebellion. You can’t leave anyone who has a real claim to the throne around to serve as a rallying point for your own demise.
Simply put, many members of the real-world medieval ruling class would be judged evil based on current standards. Even ones that were historically considered good by their own people.
Tywin is an unsympathetic sort, and he’s very savvy about political manipulation, but he’s also blinded by his own failure to see beyond the family’s reputation and power. He legitimately feels that Westeros would be better off with Lannisters in charge. Only his family’s leadership can protect the lands and smallfolk from internal and external threats. Unfortunately for everyone else, he’s too proud to see that his family’s best asset is Tyrion.
I think from Tywin’s point of view, Tyrion is not the family’s best asset and for good reason. Remember that Tywin’s plans extend to the future after he’s dead. I don’t think it’s a mistake for Tywin to doubt Tyrion’s long term ability to maintain grip on power, nevermind extend his family’s power into the future as Tywin himself is doing. Tyrion has displayed abilities to help in the problems of the here and now and Tywin doesn’t acknowledge it, I agree with that.
But can Tyrion scare the crap out of people and get them to jump when he says? Can he make long term plans that anticipate what obstacles his enemies might put in his way? He hasn’t shown that so far. His sister, a woman(!), and a kid (Joffrey) have proven to be beyond his control. His own dad, who he knows like the back of his hand, has caught him by surprise multiple times now.
Khoram
4627
It’s both, the not caring about the suffering caused by crushing all obstacles on the way to getting your own goals met.
We were talking about Tywin specifically. In the case of Robert and Ned, they were rebelling against a corrupt and evil king who had just burned Ned’s Uncle and brother (I think? I forget) alive in front of the entire court. I can see how someone “good” like Ned would ally with and work for someone like Robert. Robert may be further toward “evil” on the spectrum than Ned, but certainly not at Tywin levels. When did Robert do anything approaching the Red Wedding or the incident with Tyrion’s first wife?
To me it’s much more complicated than being able to just call a guy evil based on cherry picked actions.
Who is cherry picking? I’m basing calling Tywin evil on the actions related to us in the 3 books. He is a selfish, uncaring, ruthless, cold-blooded, hypocritical, despicable tyrant of a man whose only goal is to keep himself and his family in the highest position of power at any cost. What action did he ever take for the good of anyone other than the Lannisters? You are blind if you think he is some Machiavellian using pragmatic if amoral techniques for the good of the land and people. He sent the Mountain out to pillage the countryside (ie, crush the common people whom he rules without a care as to the pain and suffering his actions will cause) simply to draw out the Starks. That’s evil.
I do think the whole thing with Theon is completely pointless, but I think maybe the showrunners will use Ramsay’s reveal as a stepping-stone-OMG leading up to the Red Wedding, probably in the same episode.
Remember that we’ll have to wait two weeks for the next episode; there will not be a new one aired during Memorial Day weekend.
— Alan
Didn’t Selmy kill the Titan’s Bastard in one-on-one combat or was that someone else?
I dug the killing of the White Walker by Sam, that was pretty cool. I dunno why they didn’t have Stannis say Robb’s name last instead of first. More dramatic that way.
— Alan
Phred
4631
That must be why he was so quick to bed Shae.
Phred
4632
Not to mention the hypocrite takes Shae into his bed after Tyrion’s trial.
Phred
4633
Nope it’s canon that Dario brought Dany the heads of his co-chiefs when he came over to her side. I think you are thinking of Strong Belwas and a city protector.
They changed who Mero is in the TV show versus the books. In the books, Mero was head of the Second Sons and Daario was part of the Stormcrows, a different mercenary company. Daario did kill his co-chiefs in the books. However, Mero of the Second Sons was unrelated and he had fled in the books for some reason (as a result of Brown Ben Plumm?) and was later found amongst the refugees. Barristan Selmy killed Mero in the books when he found him. Unfortunately, the show combined the separate mercenary companies into one.
The show has to be more efficient than the books. That’s just a given.
Yep. And then he left his knife behind on the ground? Gah.
Emos
4637
Yeah I noticed that too but I guess I can forgive them for simply fleeing in terror. Cool crystallizing death scene though!
Tyrion and Sansa seem to get along a lot better than in the book. While she’s not exactly warm to him, she doesn’t seem completely repulsed and afraid of him either.
Another fairly weak episode, in my humble opinion, but it had it’s good points. No Theon-skinning, so I got to watch the whole thing with my wife, which is good. Lots of cheese and beefcake: also good to watch with the wife.
A tiny amount of Arya time, but I liked the beginnings of reconciliation between her and the Hound.
The Dragonstone stuff was fun in general, and I liked the Stannis/Davos scenes. Some awkward moments there though: It’s tough when one of your potential kings who is also your uncle walks in on you when you’ve been tied to the bed by a naked Magic Redhead who is in the process of putting leeches on you – I think we’ve all been there.
Most of the Tyrion stuff wasn’t a lot of fun to watch. Odd to say that since Dinklage is always so good, but getting sloppy-drunk seemed largely out of character for Tyrion as presented so far in the show. The actress playing Sansa did a good job, and I liked the subtle facial-expression-only communication going on between Tyrion and Shae throughout.
I liked the scenes with poor Loras.
Sam killing the white walker was a better twist on the event than the one portrayed in the books, I thought. I was disappointed we didn’t see Coldhands, but the cacophony (and then silence) of all the ravens was pretty cool. I guess we’ll need to see if that flock of ravens is unkind or not. I liked the discussion on names for the whelp.
The stuff with Dany was almost the most interesting thing in the episode, and that’s rare. Daario seemed like a fashion model rather than a hardened mercenary, but I guess he was supposed to. At least he doesn’t have a technicolor beard.
Emos
4640
Was Tyrion getting totally shitfaced a way to embarrass Tywin as much as possible or was some of it genuine dismay at the situation that he and Sansa were put into? The part where he pleads for her to kneel down so he can put the cloak seemed a bit more “friendly” I think I remember that scene in the book that Sansa was a bit more difficult.
