You know, actually, I’m kinda warming to these ideas :)

Steel Wind’s point was re-driven home even in tonight’s episode as Tywin re-states something along the lines of, “treated you as my son.”

I do agree that tonight was fairly disappointing and there wasn’t too much going on. You can’t top last week of course, but I guess they really do want to let unCat wait for the next year. Probably too much to ask for, really. Jamie did make it back at least, so my prediction from much earlier in the thread actually happened (though of course the royal wedding didn’t).

Though Arya technically killed someone else, so I dunno if she was just lying, forgot, or what. Clegane’s reaction was funny as hell.

— Alan

It isn’t yet clear they will choose to do that at all. GRRM has already second guessed himself on that and has mused at conventions that Lady Stoneheart might be something that, on reflection, he would rather he had never done in the first place.

Whatever the case, whether Lady Stoneheart is vital or not, or wise or not, they chose not to do that in s03e10. Whether or not that was the best move on D&D’s part, the ending DID go over a little flat. Dragons s01e10, Army of the Undead (s02E10) and … crowd surfing (s03E10)? One of these things is not like the other.

It didn’t have to be Lady Stoneheart, but it needed to be something ELSE. Because the last five minutes on the screen this evening didn’t do it for me tonight.

Oh well. On the plus side, we just got (sort of) half of A Storm of Swords on our screens, and the second half is greenlit and ramping up right now. It’s a little easy to get blase about that, given the incredible success of the show to date. There once was a time that people were VERY skeptical the show would last long enough to do the Red Wedding.

Right now, the show is a LOCK to go to at least six seasons, and it would take a genuine disaster in Seasons 5 and 6 to end up getting the show cancelled before the end. Currently, it is HBO’s #2 overall ratings winner, ahead of True Blood and just behind The Sopranos. And that is adding up North American viewers only. Add in overseas, it exceeds both True Blood and The Sopranos in terms of viewers; GoT has firmly moved into mainstream pop culture.

Game of Thrones is also HBO`s best selling DVD/Blu-Ray boxed set. Which, given that it is also the most pirated TV show on the internet, speaks to the wisdom of leaving 1080p to disc only – and that some pirates at least appear to be quite willing to pony up to purchase the show they love in some form.

Quite an achievement.

I caught that, too. His point that Tyrion “was a Lannister” was delivered in a manner that hinted that status wasn’t because Tyrion was Tywin’s son – it was because he was Joanna’s. Joanna was also Tywin’s first cousin and a Lannister before she married Tywin.

Oh Arya is referring to a man, where I guess technically the person she killed (accidentally or whatever) was kind of a kid.

Interesting bit from an EW article today about the future:

“I don’t think we want to answer specifically what we’re keeping and dropping, but we do take your point,” Benioff said when asked about Book 4′s content. “The series has already reached a point where there are so many characters, particularly in season three we’re introducing so many new ones, we run the risk of bursting at the seams as we try to cram every single subplot and all the various characters and it becomes impossible on a budgetary level and it becomes impossible on an episode-basis to jump around every few minutes to 30 different characters and locations. We don’t want to do that, and recognize that as a real risk and we will take steps not to fall into that trap.”

Quipped Benioff’s fellow showrunner Dan Weiss: “Time for negative population growth.”

Of greater concern is the pace of books vs. seasons. It’s an issue that fans pointed out from the moment the show was greenlit and now even HBO is beginning to realize there could be an issue. Book 5 took Martin six years to write and it was released in 2011. “I finally understand fans’ fear — which I didn’t a couple years ago: What if the storytelling catches up to the books?,” says HBO programming president Michael Lombardo. “Let’s all hope and pray that’s not going to be a problem”

Martin, for one, isn’t worried. The way the author sees it, producers have plenty of material to keep Thrones rolling. “I think the odds against that happening are very long,” Martin says when asked about the show catching up to his novels. “I still have a lead of several gigantic books. If they include everything in the books, I don’t think they’re going to catch up with me. If they do, we’ll have some interesting discussions.”

Martin points to Starz’ Spartacus, which interrupted its main storyline with a prequel season. As it so happens, Martin has discussed with HBO the possibility of developing a series based on his Hedge Knight books, which are prequels to Ice and Fire.

If they do a Hedge Knight mini-series I might have to change my pants.

— Alan

They are not doing everything in the books – and it’s pretty clear by now that “they are going to catch up”. Most viewers have now squared with that probability.

Frankly, if I was George, I would be PLEASED AS PUNCH for the show to end in June of 2018 and then release A Dream of Spring hot on its heels a few weeks later. Look at what the first season did for book sales of Song of Ice and Fire and A Dance with Dragons. It had over half of Amazon’s top 10 for most of the summer of 2012. Amazing sales figures.

“Now here’s the REAL ENDING everybody!” It would sell ridiculously well and have a marketing and major media buzz campaign that no other book – not even Harry Potter, had going for it.

It felt a little bit flat.

Her arc is in so many ways the most conventional, and as a consequence the least interesting (at least for me). In this moment though I think they simply didn’t do a good job building up to it. It happened and I’m not sure how or why we earned it. I know they wanted to gives us something chipper to makeup for the Red Wedding, but I don’t think it really worked. It just happens and we’re supposed to care and think it’s a wonderfully magical moment. Who are these people again? Oh yes, they’re the slaves – and there was a that thing last episode, right? Ending with Stannis would have made for a much better ending, or Lady Stoneheart for that matter.

Just to pile on, I can’t see Jon and Dany getting together as other posters have argued. It’s exactly the way a fantasy story would end and Martin has spent the past thirteen years purposefully subverting those tropes.

Whatever he does, it won’t be that.

I enjoyed the episode, especially because of all the various reunions. It was interesting seeing people back with familiar faces, or back in familiar places. I liked seeing Arya cut loose finally after all this killing talk. The wolf head thing was pretty good, more disturbing to me in a way than the wedding. The Freys are sick. The sausage scene, lol, and the Greyjoys getting their gift, all good stuff.

The ending was weak though. The crowd surfing bit, c’mon! I did appreciate the undercurrent, that these people are not fighters but just civilians, who need to be fed and so on. She is literally put in the position of being their mother, the head of the family who has to put bread on the table. When she told the dragons to fly I thought something was going to happen. Well I guess it did, the dragons flew, but it was a major letdown.

Seeing what the Freys had done to Robb’s body really made me want to see unCat and two dead Freys for the finale. I agree that this ending was flat and boring, but I knew towards the end it was just going to be Dany liberating the slaves of Yunkai. Not enough time left to do a unCat scene.

As I said before, the talk of removing content and characters had better not include the Red Viper in season 4.

Catelyn’s rebirth happens in the epilogue of SoS. I would not expect to see her again until the end of next season or at least until fairly far into next season, halfway in maybe. I was initially thinking the end of next season but that might be too into it.

Just because it’s at the end of the book doesn’t mean it has to be the fourth season. D&D have already stated that they’re no longer doing a book a year. They’re adapting the entire saga at this point, not on a book-by-book basis. Expect quite a bit of Dance and Feast to bleed into Season 4. Hell, Bran’s entire Book 3 storyline ended last night. He’s gonna have to do SOMETHING next year, and that’s probably going to be his scenes from Dance, which is Book 5.

Thematically, last night was the best time to pull Stoneheart. They obviously didn’t, and at this point, with all D&D’s talk of negative population growth and the show hitting too many characters and the revelation that Michelle Fairley only had a three-season contract, they may very well have cut Stoneheart out of the story.

Well, she only had a three-season contract because she’s only in the show for three seasons. It wouldn’t be prudent to have a character’s contract extend out further than the character’s demise, nor would it make sense financially or plot-wise.

However, you can surely bring her back for one-offs or whatever, which is what this event would be. In any event, they may be just wanting to do that where it falls in naturally with the novel, at the end of SoS. Though now I’m thinking maybe they skip the way they did it in the novel with some lamer Frays and go straight to Brienne. She’s not going to have much to do in King’s Landing in season four now that Jamie’s back, and the meager subplot involving Loras wanting revenge was already removed right after Renly died. Make her go on her adventures with Jamie seeing her off, and then she runs into Stoneheart at the end and bang, the big reveal. Because it’ll be just as big that way then with some nobody Fray. I doubt she’ll be cut out.

I also doubt that Red Viper would be removed; it’s a pivotal part of the latter half of the book. In addition, they provide some clues that they will go that way when the Brotherhood without Banners bring up the whole Targ-baby thing when they captured Sandor. What’s the point of having this bit of exposition if it doesn’t have an impact later on, especially the Red Viper’s motivation to dueling the Mountain? They really didn’t need to have those lines in there and could have easily put in something else.

As for Bran… yeah I dunno.

— Alan

I really like this episode (10), the latest episode, with the red wedding, did nothing for me. This one was more emotional, and had more things.

It occurs to me, after wondering why they didn’t bring her back last night, that Cat doesn’t actually do anything in the books. In terms of impact on the latter part of the story that is, she has none. Therefore, the only reason to bring her back on the tv show is if the producers have either made up some notable things for her to do, or if they know Martin has something important planned for her and they need to set that up now.

So now I’m thinking she’s done in the tv show. I think they have nicely established to the audience that yes, we can resurrect people in this show. But I think that’s a delicate plot twist and they’ll save it for just the right big moment, possibly with Jon. Once you start having multiple resurrected characters on the show it sort of blunts the impact. The books can get away with it because those are long, sprawling stories. The tv show is so compact that things can seem forced if they’re not careful.

That’s a good point. I’ve haven’t read anything that says the actress is coming back. I just think, given the spirit of the show, it would have been AWESOME to see her reawakening rather than the lame crowd surfing Dany. They gave us a bone, just not the one I wanted.

Well, its implied that she goes on a revenge killing spree taking out anyone who is even remotely attached to red wedding. That would be potentially interesting to see play out on screen. Also, keep in mind that Theon really has no role either until he comes back as Reek in ADWD, he is only mentioned in passing in ASOS and AFFC so they are inventing 2 or 3seasons worth of story for him; there’s no reason why they cant so the same for Catelyn assuming she has a larger role to play in the final 2 books.

This is all true. It’s just that I think this goes to the producers having to pick and choose what to leave out, what to modify, and what to invent. They obviously picked Theon’s storyline as something they want to invest in. There’s a lot of stuff related to Theon’s part though(Boltons taking over the north). But to have Theon’s story that means something else gets little or no screen time. That’s why I’m wondering why Cat’s storyline, from this point forward, would be considered so important it must be squeezed in there. And I’m not seeing a reason. The biggest single reason for the tv audience would be feeling that all is not over for the Starks after the RW by seeing the mom come back. But it actually is over for them. In the scheme of things so far in the story, Cat is nothing more than an insignificant but interesting twist.

Then again, maybe they’ll have her pop up in a cameo appearance, like her son’s body with the wolfhead. A nod to the books, however brief that nod might be. The only thing is the tv audience will be thinking “Wait! What, she’s still alive?” and that opens a whole can of worms.

Why would anyone want to publicly reveal the actress if coming back, even if she was??? Of course you’re not reading anything about that.

— Alan

Fantastic post. I am familiar with the evidence for Tyrion being Aerys’ bastard, I just don’t find it convincing. Most of it is answered by this line: “all dwarfs are bastards in their fathers’ eyes.” There are some solid counter-arguments as well. It may well turn out that he is, but it’s very much an open question. The bastard name for the Crownlands is Waters.

As to Tyrion being a genetic mutant as a result of inbreeding, that’s unconvincing for two reasons. First, all Targaryens are massively inbred, but there is no history of mismatched eyes of dwarfism in that family. Tywin’s wife, however, was also his cousin. So there is good evidence that inbreeding in Targaryens doesn’t cause the kind of afflictions that Tyrion was born with, and there is inbreeding involved whether his father is Aerys or Tywin anyway. These facts also render Tyrion’s hair color largely irrelevant.

Tywin also told Jamie you are not my son when he was angry with him. Tywin tends to disown offspring when they disappoint him. Tyrion has almost always been a disappointment, despite being Tywin writ small. Genna Lannister sees this.

The Dragon has three heads… but nowhere does it say they all have to be Targaryens. I expect Tyrion will be a Dragonrider, but I don’t see that this means he must have Targaryen blood.

For all we know Varys and Illyrio were always planning to put Aegon on the throne. I also believe he is a fake, btw. The son of Illyrio to the woman he loved who may well be a Blackfyre descendant. We don’t really know that much about what their plans were at what time.

On the undead stuff, I’ll have reread Mel’s chapter. I figured it was there to tell us firstly that Mel is sincere, second that she keeps asking for glimpses of Azor Ahai reborn and keeps being shown Jon. I also suspect that the reason she gets her chapter named for her, rather than the definite descriptions some others like Aero Hotah get, is that she will have more chapters in Winds. I have a theory that reborn Jon, as a male claimant to the throne, will no longer be a POV. Cat’s POV also ended when she died. Mel, then, once she accepts that Jon is AA, will become the eyes through which we see Jon Snow.

Do bastards get their names from their Fathers’ place of residence/origin? Or do they get their name from where they grow up and/or are born? Anyway, I think the story needs Tyrion as the true heir to Tywin, future lord of the Rock and kinslayer more than it needs yet another secret Targaryen offspring.

I suspect he’s a fake as well, Martin loves to play with his readers and pretenders were such a trope in medieval history.