The funny thing is, being a Blackfyre descendant arguably gives him a better claim than being the trueborn son of Rhaegar does.
To clarify, Aegon the Unworthy legitimised all his bastards on his deathbed, which technically made Daemon Blackfyre his heir. The Blackfyres lost the war when he tried to take the Iron Throne, though. That would make Aegon the mummer’s dragon potentially the true heir to Aegon the Conqueror. That would be a neat twist. That said, I still think he’s doomed.
This post makes no sense at all. And, no, he wouldn’t have a better claim than Rhaegar’s own son.
Isn’t that planning pretty much confirmed based on what Varys tells Kevan Lannister right before he kills him?
From the region where they were born. Snow in the north for example:
Reach - Flowers
Westerlands - Hill
Iron Islands - Pyke
Riverlands - Rivers
Dorne - Sand
North - Snow
Vale - Stone
Stormlands - Storm
Crownlands - Waters
I was disappointed in last nights season finale. We’d heard rumors from the producers that this episode would be somewhat uplifting after the horrific events of last episode, mainly to appease non-readers who were in shock over the Red Wedding. Yet we got nothing uplifting, save perhaps for the final crowd surfing scene. Non-readers have zero context to place that in, since they have no idea yet how screwed Dany is now that she has an entire city of slaves to feed and care for.
What we got was Ramsey toying with Theon and his “sausage” (I may never grill up another kielbasa again), Jon and Ygritte trading proclaimations of love and arrows before parting ways, Davos freeing Gendy, then Stannis deciding he’s going to be the saviour of the Westeros. We saw Jaime come home. We saw Arya is no longer afraid, but also has no hope left in her. We saw Bran and company resolve to see their quest through to the end, while Asha starts one of her own (Was that even in the books? I don’t think so.). In what may have been the best scenes of the night we saw Tyrion interact with the small council, Joffrey and Tywin, and we also saw some great moments between he and Sansa where she may have just been starting to like and trust him just a little, then BAM, the news about Robb arrives and his Lannister blood destroys any hope of that happening. Cersei delivers a speech about how awesome it is to be a (power hungry and paranoid) mom (to inbred children). And Varys begs Shae to leave, but she turns down a small fortune to stand by her dwarf (totally NOT how things went down in the books, and likely they are turning the tables on that story now as well, which should be interesting next season).
No big WOW moment at the end. Not even a “hmmm” moment. Just some neat wrapping up of last weeks insanity and “see ya next April!”.
Pod
4905
Did you come up with this theory yourself? I really like it, and I tend not to like most fan theories. e.g. I don’t think Tyrion is a targ, and most of all I do not think that R+L=J. Or rather I hope that isn’t true. It’s far too bland and cliché and lovey-dovey for ASOIAF. Especially if Jon turns out to be the promised superhero who saves everything. BLAH. I kinda hope Jon just dies in the snow.
Anyway, a bit of searching and other people have had the same theory about Melisandre. And there’s apparently an interesting comment in the TV show’s director’s commentary that you might be interested in.
For as much death as seems to happen in these books/show, does that ever really happen? For as crazy as most of the deaths seem, all the major character deaths seem to be pretty epic.
As far as I know, I was the original poster on Westeros.org who put the theory forward, though I am sure lots of other people have thought it about it at the same time (if not before) as ADwD came out.
There are other hints in the way Melisandre is filmed to look VERY grey/pale in natural light. Fans made a big deal about this when Catelyn appeared in Bran’s dream looking exceptionally grey/pale, but similar makeup/ post-production color balancing on Melisandre has not attracted a peep. They did the same trick with Melisandre both in season 2 and 3. Mel is madeup to look extremely grey/pale in the scene when they meet Renly (S02E04). She looks exceptionally grey/pale again in Season 3, when Gendry and Mel are on board ship near King’s Landing (S03E07). The appearance of her flesh goes beyond natural skin coloring. It’s subtle but not so subtle that it is anything other than deliberate, imo. The comments from Alan Taylor you linked to confirm that her undead nature is part of the show’s “production Bible”.
In almost all other scenes, we see Mel when her flesh is lit by some sort of fire nearby. She then appears whitish / normal in those shots, but not grey/pale unless it’s in clear lighting out of doors (in forest, or hooded and cloaked, does not count).
As to whether she is undead, there is not much doubt of it at all, imo.
As to whose side Mel is on - that is not entirely clear. She certainly BELIEVES she is on the side of life. It is possible I suppose that she does not comprehend what she is, and attributes her lack of any need for sleep, food or drink to her faith. If her glamour was originally cast by someone else, I suppose this is possible – but I must think it is quite unlikely.
My belief is that it is her undead nature and magical training as a shadow binder somehow allows her to see visions in the flames. Taking it further into unbridled speculation, it is possible that she is seeing things which her future self has seen or is simply trying to tell her, screaming backwards at her self in time, sometimes in growing frustration. She was raised so quickly from the dead that she has no memory at all of being on “the other side” and, on the show at least, this frustrates her.
Jury is still out on Tyrion, but I think it quite likely.
I’m sorry to tell you that the jury is NOT out on R+L=J. GRRM asked D Benioff and DB Weiss who Jon Snow’s parents were as part of their initial luncheon meeting when they pitched GoT as a HBO show to GRRM. At the time of that luncheon, I think AFFC had just been released (and if not, then not – nothing turn on AFFC as there are no clues contained within it). Point is, the answer to that question was contained either within the first 4 books, or in the first three. (And let’s face it – they are contained within Book #1 and always were).
At a minimum, we know for certain that the clues to answer that question correctly are not contained in ADwD or in some book that is yet to be released.
D&D have not revealed what their answer was, but they have confirmed that GRRM asked the question of them to gain some assurance that these guys were real and had been paying attention. They have also confirmed that they got the answer right.
If they got the answer right, and the answer is contained within the first 4 books, it must be that R+L=J. There is no answer OTHER than that one which is plausibly presented in the first four books.
Sorry.
Phred
4909
They get their name from their parents just like we do. You guys really need to get off this “official bastard name” kick and realize the situation with Tyrion bears no relation to the poor unrecognized bastards you’re using as the “official” naming convention examples you are seizing on. Do you think there is a name police running around making sure all bastards get official bastard names or something?
Tyrion as others have pointed out, was acknowledged as Tywin’s son. He may not be but if Tywin says he is, no one is going to hang a bastard name on him.
I have a hard time believing that Ned would send the son of Liana and the true heir to the throne to the wall. Seeing how righteous he is, he would rather help him claim the throne, no?
Nope. He’d have as good a claim as any of Robert’s bastards. As in, not good at all.
MikeJ
4912
Ned Stark was the number two guy in a successful rebellion against the Targaryens. The last Targaryen king had Ned’s father burned alive and his brother tortured to death. I don’t really see him as very eager to press Jon’s claim to the throne.
Actually, it’s a true claim to the throne as Jon is not a bastard.
We know this for two reasons:
- It was legally possible because Targaryen princes could legally have more than one wife (Checkov’s Gun); and
- The marriage must have been performed so that Jon was trueborn as there is no other explanation why three of the remaining King’s Guard (Whent, Dayne and the Lord Commander, Hightower) were guarding the Tower of Joy if the Targaryen heir was NOT inside.
In short, if Jon were not true born all three of those King’s Guard would have left and gone to Dragonstone where Viserys was. They didn’t do that. That tells us all we need to know about whether or not Jon was true born.
The missing critical information should have appeared HERE in the TV series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Mp8MzAjAY
As for the initial question, Eddard Stark did NOT send Jon to the Wall; rather, Jon asked to go and Eddard let him do it. By swearing his vow to the Night’s Watch, Ned thought Jon was saving his life so he let him take the vow. However, it was still plainly dishonest of Ned to let Jon take the vow without at least knowing the truth. Which is why after Eddard died and his “ghost” is seen by Rickon in the tomb that Eddard was “Sad. It was something to do about Jon”, says Rickon.
I dunno. She’s a redhead… or at least Ms. van Houten has auburn hair naturally and doesn’t appear to be a big fan of the tanning bed.
If you do a Google image search on “Melisandre” and look at the pictures where she’s with other characters she doesn’t seem to be much paler than anyone else, fire-lit or otherwise. In the outdoor scenes, she seems pale and wan, but it’s Ireland and overcast, and EVERYONE looks pale and wan… and she doesn’t seem to me to be paler than the rest of the cast in those scenes, though she does appear cleaner.
Do we actually know that she and Beric don’t eat? We know she drinks wine at least.
Nah. Ned was a supporter of Robert’s rebellion and believed in the justness of that cause. He has no interest in restoring a righteously-deposed dynasty. What he could not abide was killing people for the sins of their parents – he argued against assassinating Dany, was sickened by Clegane’s killing of the infant Targs, etc. He simply wanted Jon to live a life unencumbered/threatened by who he was related to.
I agree that restoring Jon to the throne, assuming he’s in line for it, would not be the way Stark would go. For one thing, no dragons. That family line is all about the dragons and it’s possible that without dragons the people would not accept him as a true heir. For another, Stark would know that people who stand to lose power if Jon got the throne would not stand idly by and let that happen. It would mean a war, much like his son/Stannis/Renly/etc wind up fighting. Who is going to help Stark in his war to restore Jon? He has no allies outside the North. The people in the North wouldn’t really care about the king in the south, it’s all the same to them.
Robert would have killed him in an instant, that’s why Ned never acknowledged Jon’s true parentage.
There’s also a line in book 1 when Ned, jailed, is speaking with Varys and GRRM describes Ned as incredibly sad, wishing he could speak with Jon one last time.
Exactly. And Ned would’ve called his banners and ultimately lost that war.
I was thinking about endgames last night. Honestly, I half expect to see Stannis on the throne. It would certainly make for that bittersweet ending that Martin promised. He’s the man who no ones wants, but he wouldn’t be the worst king. The heroes, like Jon and Arya? I think they’re in for even more pain and sadness.
He wouldn’t’ even tell Catelyn, he feared Robert that much.
Nah, Stannis is a goner at some point. I honestly think Tyrion has the best shot of all the major characters, if he truly is Aerys’ by-blow.
I’m not sure Ned kept the secret so tight out of fear or out of promising Lyanna he’d raise and protect the baby. But, he definitely had to know that once Robert learned he was harboring Rhaegar’s child, a Targaryen, Robert would’ve gone ballistic and scoured the North until the baby was dead. So he let his own wife believe the rumors that he’d cheated rather than risk Jon’s parentage leaking out. Like Robb with Jeyne, he placed honoring his promise over his own personal honor.
Pod
4920
I don’t believe it impossible that Robert would allow Jon Snow to join the watch, as long as the wider world (an possibly Jon himself?) wasn’t informed. It’s not as if there’s another Targaryen heir at currently at the wall…
