5241

I think Thorne knew that Snow would back his plan so he teased him as a man of the people, even though he knew what the answer would be.

As for making Thorne not quite as douchey, I think that’s because Thorne is pulling double duty in the TV series in terms of character role. Thorne will take the place of the smith Donald Noye in the defence of Castle Black. Unlike book Ser Alliser, TV series Ser Alliser Thorne won’t be making it out of Season 4 alive.

Whether or not that will have a butterfly effect in the future remains to be seen.

5242

BTW the scene in the sept between Jaime and Cersei was a lot more “rapey” than in the books.

5243

Originally, I was going to say that I really dislike articles like that one, that is basically a fanboy disagreeing with the tone of the show. After reading it a second time (and getting over the “just out of writing school vocabulary-splosion” style writing) (Seriously, stop using the word agency, this isn’t a historical research paper) she makes a decent point. I do agree that the show is sometimes going to lengths the book doesn’t. Like, they got really high off of the shock value of the red wedding, and they are trying to push the envelope. All of the gratuitous torture scenes that were added for Theon, very unnecessary. I think it is also interesting, because the show is so truncated, they kinda have to cram these shocking bits in quickly.

Though, I would say that the first episode with Dany/Drogo is basically a short-cut of the books. This is bad, because she shortens the whole courtship of Drogo/Dany to the very end. There are a few spots where he gets really rough with her, and it is much more of a begrudging “yes” and less of a loving “yes”. Though she learned to love him, because all in all, he is better than his customs, and a really loving guy. Their relationship in the books is so much better. As you have the subtle change from Dany being the little girl to the commanding woman she is now. She basically “womans up” during those months of riding and becomes the badass we know.

Besides, Jamie is going to have a major character-redeeming moment shortly anway. I didn’t personally see that septa scene as rapey, but then again, I am biased because I have read the books, and I know that Cersei in the books was kind of the type that it didn’t matter what her brain wanted, she couldn’t say no to Jamie. I honestly don’t think that the show runners were making some sort of point with this digression though, as it was probably 90% accurate to what happened. (With about 100% less mention of Cersei being on the rag)

I think when it comes down to it, the show really does need to understand that the fiction is the fiction and digressions from what is already a complicated and elaborate story are not good. The story is good as it is, why fudge it so much? So far they haven’t really done much other than give smaller characters bigger roles and combining various characters to cut down on the sheer amount of names. Nothing has drastically changed, and I don’t think it will.

All in all, I think this scene is a bit of a tempest/teacup situation, as it conveyed pretty similar feelings to the book. As it is the last time they are together, after he forces himself onto her in the books, she says it is the last time, and it is pretty much the same in the show.

5244

I think that Jaime/Cersei scene makes a lot more sense in the show. Jaime has had his sword hand lopped off. A sword being a phallic object, you can see what that means to his sense of self. He’s trying to use his other hand but he still can’t come out on top that way. Then Cersei, knowing it or not, makes it worse by telling him to kill his brother, his dwarf brother. She’s emasculated him even more by implying that severely unfair fights are all he’s good for now. His manhood has been under siege in the worst ways, and then she rejects him. So he rapes her, right there by their dead son. He’s trying to reclaim all he’s lost.

He’s just being true to his character, the way the Hound was at the end of the episode. If people project their own wishes for niceness on him that’s on them, he’s more self aware but it doesn’t mean he’s a good guy now.

5245

They could have just changed the dialogue a tad and made the scene much more obviously consensual, is the point (as it is in the books). I also don’t remember any “hateful woman” comment, especially in that scene. Anyway, [to Jon] you’re right about them changing things for no good reason–why have Jaime be back in Kings Landing before Joffrey’s wedding/death?

@gameoverman, the thing is, by that point in the story (unless they want to tell a substantially different story in the show), Jaime has begun a real spiritual transformation. He still has a blind spot where it comes to Cersei, however, especially at that scene in the books, which occurs immediately upon his return to King’s Landing–dirty, bedraggled, almost unrecognizable. He finally comes to the realization that his fantasy of making his love for Cersei public and legitimate will never happen (due to her political ambitions), and eventually becomes disillusioned with her. Anyway, whatever. I’ll grant that (because I knew the nature of the scene from the books) it didn’t seem nearly as bad as the scene on Mad Men when Joan’s creepy future husband forces himself on her at the office.

5246

I can’t help but wonder if the writers weren’t trying to compel us to feel more inclined toward Cersei as we head into a period that, in the books, was generally regarded as a low (that is, uninteresting) point in both her character arc and King’s Landing politics. Whereas she was simply going nuts in the book, now we can infer that she is disintegrating not only because she thinks that she has lost both son and lover, but because she has been betrayed by the latter.

The writers need to tread carefully with Bronn. I fully expect that he is going to be sticking around as we move ahead, and they must be careful not to ruin us on him.

5247

I think Cersei’s arc has been one of powerlessness for a while now. She’s had her son stand up to her face, crazy but still defiant. She’s seen her son, source of her power as queen till he comes of age, taken away by marriage. She got owned by her dad promising her in marriage, her son got killed in front of her…she’s been on the down hill slide for a while. This rape thing adds to that, ups it dramatically. So I think it’s also consistent in that way. I do believe it buys her a bit, just a bit, of audience sympathy. She is a foul character, getting raped does not change that. Her complaint did seem to be “it’s not right” meaning here in this place, in front of their dead son, not “it’s not right” in that whole brother/sister incest thing is wrong. I think mostly the audience is going to think she set those wheels in motion and now has been run over by them.

5248

GRRM has chimed in on the difference between the book and the show…

Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply… but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that. I do not want long detailed dissections and debates about the TV series here on my blog.

As for your question… I think the “butterfly effect” that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey’s death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other’s company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that’s just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime’s POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don’t know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei’s dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression – but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That’s really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing… but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

5249

I thought Bowen Marsh as well? Or is he actually present in the show?

5250

Bowen Marsh is present in the show, though unnamed as yet (his name may have been mentioned during the graduation ceremony in the first season, not sure). He was one of the Officers of the Watch who sat at the table in judgment of Jon Snow in Ep 1 - though he had no lines.

Obviously, we will need him – or someone standing in for him – next season.

5251

Loved the conversation between Tyrion and Jamie. Also some great visuals in this episode. And yeah, the part at the end was just freaky.

— Alan

5252

So, that episode was like 30% from the books?

Also, what the flibbety fuck is going on with Bran?

5253

Yeah there was hardly anything from the book in this episode. It’s kind of refreshing.

— Alan

5254

I have no idea where they’re going with Bran and Jon now. Pretty much totally off-script with that episode.

Honestly, I didn’t like the episode that much. Dull, badly paced, Jon’s speech was dumb, Littlefinger’s accent is so so bad, etc. No Davos or Stannis the Mannis.

5255

Ha, Stannis the Mannis - - you must listen to the Cast of Thrones as well. :-)

5256

Not sure I get the hate; I thought it was a pretty decent episode. Not a ton of action, but a lot of things are happening. I was a bit surprised that they decided to go ahead and reveal Joffrey’s killers so blatantly. Margarery’s bedside visit to Tommen was almost creepy (reminded me of Ilithyia seducing that whiny kid in season one of Spartacus). Pacing seemed fine. I never got bored.

— Alan

5257

I really liked the episode. Yes, it’s a bridge, but every episode can’t knock off a major character, and I really like the fact that I didn’t really know what was going on for a change. Between the liberties they’re taking with especially Bran’s story, and the glimpse at the Others at the end, it really had me excited.

Plus, the adventures of Brienne and Pod was well done, especially Pod’s grin.

5258

I thought it ruined one of the most bittersweet moments in the books, which was toward the end when Jaime actually rescues Tyrion and asking if he really did kill Joffrey was like another knife in the gut. Not that the producers understand characterization or nuance though, so I shouldn’t expect much at this point but more unnecessary T&A, liberal use of the word cunt, and more rape scenes.

That episode was maybe 2% from the books. Literally the only things from book 3 was Ser Pounce and Jaime giving Brienne Oathkeeper, and any scene with Jaime back on track for his redemptive arc felt off after the fact that he raped his sister was ignored by the show.

This was arguably the worst episode in the entire series so far.

5259

Each week after we watch the show, my wife asks the same question: “was that about what happened in the books?” I’m not sure why she asks, but it’s rare when my wife and I can share in a good, geeky conversation, so I relish the question. This week was the first time when I could honestly answer: “No. There was practically nothing this week that was in the books.”

So, breaking it down:

The Dany stuff was fairly yawn-worthy for me, but my wife loves all the old-world stuff and for her it was the highlight of the episode. We get to see Dany engineer the a successful slave-rebellion which is shot with a bare minimum of action - one of the 1%… er, excuse me, one of the 25% is slaughtered in a narrow alleyway when the slaves corner him and his soldiers abandon him. I guess I was hoping to see a more epic sequence showing the fall of Meereen. The crucifixions got to show Dany’s non-maternal side, which was nice. Or nicely not-so-nice.

Next, Littlefinger gets to perv out a bit more, and Oleanna confesses to regicide. I guess it’s good that they spell it out for us; in the books it was a decent murder-mystery that you got to see play out in the various POV chapters, but I reckon that wouldn’t have flown in the show quite as well. I guess I’m still a little disappointed that we know who did it before the trial even gets started.

I did enjoy the scene with Margery and Tommen. Nice to see how she plans to undermine Cersei. I kind of like how it played into the scene with Cersei and Jamie too: What, there’s only one Kingsguard at the door? He’s not safe! Sure he is, don’t worry! And then Margery somehow manages to waltz in there with no issues; I presume we’ll see the secret passages in the upcoming episodes, as I think that we better-hinted at in the books with Varys.

I liked the conversation between the Lannister brothers.

The scenes with Brienne and Jamie worked very nicely, especially the goodbye on the road. Although I enjoyed the meet-up between Brienne and Pod in the books, I think it was wise of the show-runners to have them start out as semi-unwilling-companions right from the start. This show does buddy road sequences very nicely (Tyrion & Brann, Jamie & Brienne, Arya & The Hound) so I have high hopes that they can make BienneQuest more interesting in the show than it was in the books.

And from there, the show takes a left turn from the books.

The Craster’s Keep stuff was grimdark and brutal. Possibly unnecessary, but it’s nice to give an introduction to the Bad Guy of the Week before slaughtering him next week. Strange how Ghost was shown as captured… I wonder if we’ll get any explanation for that? Bran’s showing up (and possibly being reunited with Jon briefly) is wholly unexpected. Still, I liked where they are taking the thing. They couldn’t have Bran disappear for two seasons, and I always did wonder what happened to the Night’s Watchmen at Craster’s Keep.

And the scene with the horned Other at the end was interesting as well. I’m not sure what to make of it - are the White Walkers not undead but able to age and grow from infants? That make me wonder what’s going on with the skeletal horse then. Or was the infant now an Other? This is probably the most blatant occasion we’ve had of the show outstripping the books, in that we now have (just barely) more insight into the blue-eyed bad guys than we did at the end of Book 5.

5260

Nice recap Tin Wisdom… can you do that for every episode? :)

–
Did we ever see Bran and his group actually cross the Wall? Wouldn’t that be a difficult thing to do since it is guarded?

How is the (now dead) father dude in Craster’s Keep biologically related to other characters in the show? Other than giving his boys up to the White Walkers what purpose does Craster’s Keep serve to the plot? Finally, the new Bad Guy of the Week in Craster’s – have we seen him in previous episodes? I don’t remember him…

I havent read the books but spoilers dont bother me… so feel free to spoil if this thread allows it