one, it’s her first birthday
Completely agree, and I would add the details that GRRM inserted into Jon’s scene only strengthen the argument. That AA/PtwP would be born under a bleeding star (Ser Patrek was providing plenty of that, thanks to Wun Wun’s gentle tugging) amidst salt (Bowen Marsh’s tears) and smoke (Jon’s wounds in the cold).
I don’t see GRRM feeling the need to change his story if the TV show finishes first, because the producers are beginning to depart enough that the series could wind up being quite different from GRRM’s plans. And he’s stated he doesn’t want to pull a “Lost” and yank things away from all his careful planning (and regardless of what anyone thinks of the series, meticulous setup and planning is definitely one of GRRM’s strengths).
A recent interview with his editor, Anne Groell, had her saying that she’d read a chunk of manuscript for book 6 and her immediate reaction was to write George and emphatically say that he can’t let the show beat him. But he the show is going to beat him, Steel_wind is right that the 2nd half of 2015 is probably when we can reasonably begin to expect to see TWoW published. GRRM fucked off for 1.5 years after Dance, touring, writing 100s of thousands of words for anthologies, his coffee table history book coming this fall, and other projects, not committing himself full-time to Winds until Jan of 2013. On the plus side, he’s let it be known that at least so far he hasn’t had to engage in all the rewriting he experienced for books 4 and 5, that book 6 is flowing much better. Which is understandable, a large part of why he struggled so much with at least book 5 was the setup, how to move the story from act 2 to act 3 with all the POVs and their conflicting motivations and interests he has to juggle at this point.
Pod
5623
I’ve seen these theories before, and my only reaction is that I’d probably stop reading if they were true. Far to fairy tale for my liking.
Also, I don’t seem why AA and PTWP are the same person, but ever one seems to say that they are?
There really isn’t much doubt of it
[spoiler] There’s really not any doubt anymore. The fact that GRRM asked D&D who Jon Snow’s mother was as part of their interview – and that their response pleased GRRM (they got it right) seals the deal. If they knew the answer from the books as were available at the time – R+L=J is the only real path to come up with a “right” answer.
We know that Aegon MUST be false. For one, we are told there is a false dragon through a prophecy. Aegon is Varys’ creature (a Mummer in his past life). But above all, Varys and Illyrio have had “Aegon” with Jon Compton for 17 years. If he’s the REAL Aegon, he’s the true heir and entirely within their control. They know he is learned and responsible. He’s also the True King. No question about it - he’s their man.
But they back the undependable, uncontrollable, and arrogant Viserys as their first choice, not “Aegon.” WTF?? If Aegon’s real - they don’t do that. They go to Aegon first. Instead, they only activate Plan B when Plan A fails. And if Plan A is not Aegon, he’s not real, he’s just a Bittersteel bastard Varys found. The rest follows.
As for Tyrion’s real father being Aerys, read the first description of Tyrion in Jon’s chapter in A Game of Thrones. Read it carefully, what Tyrion says about his father and how the chapter ends. The truth was before our eyes from the start.
Tyrion was always the third dragon. It’s no accident that Jon, Dany and Tyrion get more chapters than any other POV characters.
[/spoiler]
Pod
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I don’t get how you’re so strongly convinced by this, to not even have a shadow of a doubt. There’s evidence for multiple different people being these prophecies, if these prophecies are even important in the first place. It could all be a giant red herring on GRRM’s part. It reminds me a lot of all of those religious sects interpreting the same written text in a thousand different ways. Personally, I’ll just read and find out. (And if all this shit isn’t unambigously resolved I’ll flip the table). But I hope that, even if the prophecies are as you say, that historical predication doesn’t actually change the world and someone else still ‘wins’.
The rescue of Danerys and Viserys was public knowledge. Therefore they can’t really not have them as Plan A? Whereas most people though Aegon was smushed open by Gregor.
I must admit this has always puzzled me about a lot of the fanbase interpretations too - both figures are from totally different sets of prophecies and dreams, and either or both could be red herrings. IIRC the PTWP was Rhaegar’s obsession, and AA is a Red Priest obsession - why should they have anything to do with each other at all, or even any importance at all (other than to the actors whose obsessions they are)? Even if R+L=J (which I think is true)???
I think the meat of what’s going to be revealed in the next two books will be about delving more into the backstory of the world. There’s a reason for the Others, for the long winters, for the fading (and now return) of the dragons, and those reasons are probably interconnected, and more connected with things like The Citadel, the use of obsidian as a factor in both “technology” and Other-killing; The Faceless Men, the Doom of Valyria and the history of Braavos and previous slave rebellions (in comparison with Daenerys’); also characters like Quaithe; and places like Asshai that have been mentioned that we haven’t seen yet.
There is a reason why Dany has stayed in the East and freed slaves - i.e. has done things that essentially bear no relation to her own personal goals and have delayed the fulfillment of her own personal goals throughout the books. There’s also a reason - bigger than “let’s make Arya the ultimate cool rogue assassin” - why Arya’s been training with the FM. And I think Bran’s northern foray probably has a big part to play in linking all these things up too (it’s pretty obvious that he’s being set up as a co-ordinator of stuff, a means whereby far-flung actors can act in concert, not just in space but maybe even in time.)
I can’t put my finger on it, but I’m sure there’s a pattern with vast purport there that will look obvious by the end of the series, but so far has only had tiny morsels of hints. To put it in a nutshell: “the best laid plans of mice and men AND GODS gang aft agley” Just as people struggle with each other in the books, so do the gods, and the fallout from their struggles affects people; but also the fallout from human struggles affects the gods’ interactions, and sometimes humans can even block gods’ machinations (much like in the Greek myths).
And all three killed their mothers coming into the world. GRRM isn’t the type of writer to just put that detail out there without forethought.
I’m just as convinced as Steel_Wind. Took me some time to come around on Tyrion, but book 5 finally put that to rest for me. But keep in mind that the fanbase is all over the map with crazy-ass theories and conjectures. They simply have too many years between books with little else to do but reread and try to score some original–and most often illogical–theory for other fans to chew on. But SW is citing probably the most popular interpretation of the books that are very well supported textually. GRRM has stated he would’ve been more subtle writing the first book had he known something called the internet was going to spring up and achieve critical adoption by his readers in the mid to late 90s, allowing them to share their thoughts and hash things out far better than fandom in the 70s or 80s could do.
The irony is that IIRC the first of the books came out in 1995, which was pretty much the first year that “the Internet” became a thing that most Americans had the slightest inkling of.
Happy Father’s Day Lord Tywin!
JMR
5630
And now we wait another 10 months for season 5 :(
Phttt…try having been a book reader and waiting 6 years between books.
This was my first thought as well.
Perfect timing.
[Spoiler=Illyrio Explains it to Tyrion]The Plan A, Plan B part is straight from Illyrio in his conversations with Tyrion at the start of ADwD. It is clear that their plan was to marry Dany off to Drogo to get the Dothrakis aid in restoring Viserys to the throne. Then Viserys was “crowned” by Drogo and they lost control of Dany. Illyrio explains that the frightened girl who emerged on the other side of the Dothraki sea was nothing they ever expected. The Mother of Dragons took them completely by surprise.
So Illyrio explains they went with Plan B. He reveals that Plan B is Aegon.
And THAT is the problem. If you are hellbent on restoring the Targ dynasty, you don’t build Plan A around Viserys. You build it around Aegon. But they didn’t do that. We know they didn’t because they clearly TELL US that they didn’t and SHOW US that they didn’t.
If Aegon was real, he was first in line and Viserys was only next in line after Aegon. That makes Viserys Plan B. Except he wasn’t.
QED, Aegon is a fake; which, with all the rest of the ample evidence in the novels, plus the luncheon between GRRM and D&D makes Jon TPWWP.[/spoiler]
I guess that one scene in the catacombs could be called “How to chain your dragons.”
I’ll be here all week, try the veal. :-)
Interesting fact if someone dies in the book it says so in the family tree at the end of the book. I’m just saying.
Also why did the end the season without the scene that makes our jaw drop at the end of book 3. You know what I’m talking about. That’s how it should have ended.
I know! That was a major surprise for me. I kept expecting it to happen and… it didn’t. WTF! Oh well, I guess they still need a big shocker for Season 5.
— Alan
Interesting how they condensed Brienne’s big fight/brush with death and the Hound’s final battle. Someone please remind me how Brienne is rescued in the book–was it by the forces of “L.S.”?
Another book question: what’s the significance of the Citadel student Pate’s story in Oldtown, in the prologue of Book 4? Is that ever explained?
Sooooo much awesome in that episode.
Probably that, for whatever reason, the Faceless Men are present. The person who hands Pate the coin is described very similarly like Jaqen H’ghar.
I’m putting my money on Stoneheart never appearing. James Hibberd has been used as HBO’s main PR for the series and he gets “special access”. This spoiler released with the end of the episode last night suggests to me it is never going to happen.
At the end of the article it reads: “While the point of the post is that this is a storyline that was left out of the show, I understand many still think/hope it will be eventually included.” - Hibberd
