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I agree with you, Steel Wind. I doubt Stoneheart goes anywhere irreplaceable in the books, and I think the HBO show will be better off if they try very hard to stay away from high fantasy. The skeleton fight felt like it came from another show, one I wouldn’t be that interested in watching.

This IP – how is this a hit television show?! – got its grassroots campaign going because of that bedrock fanbase, who obviously love 1.) the characters and 2.) the worldview, but also 3.) the fantasy stuff. HBO recognized the potential in the first two, and probably adapted the books in spite of item 3.

How much of the story’s quality owes to its fantastic elements? (Removed from context, that’s a very strange sentence.) How interested are the HBO fans in them? For that matter, how interested is George RR Martin in them? That last question is going to be interesting as we get into the final books. The very convincing theories above about Azor Ahai do absolutely nothing for me, narratively.

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I guess I’m a bit confused as to why Stoneheart would signal some kind of flip to high-fantasy. We’ve already got dragons, smoke-demons, giants, woolly mammoths, magic spells, wights, dryads, and skeleton fights straight out of a Sinbad movie. Stoneheart would ruin the show?

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Certainly LSH wouldn’t be a tipping point of any kind; the show’s high fantasy. (Though it’s interesting you cite a woolly mammoth as a high fantasy element.) But the show’s not good because it’s high fantasy. The high fantasy is mostly just there. And in the particular case of Stoneheart, I think she would undermine a really gutting moment from the human drama for little purpose.

I should say that the show absolutely needs the dragons and the white walkers, which are both integral to the drama. The shadow that killed Renly also qualifies. Stuff like the skeleton attack is a straight up D&D encounter (written by D&D!).

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Well, that contained several surprises. And several surprising omissions.

The Tyrion/Tywin thing all went down pretty much as it happened in the book. I’m a little miffed that my prediction about the daggar-like Hand of the King pin did not come to pass, but I’ll let that slide. Tyrion came off as slightly less murderous in the show than in the books – as I (vaguely) recall from the books he more-or-less decided to kill Shae the moment he saw here in Tywin’s bed, but here it’s implied that he’s so thunderstruck that he’s immobile until Shae reached for the knife, spurring him into action.

And once again, Dinklage’s wonderfully expressive face turns in a great scene. It’s got to be tough to have an expression that shows rage, horror, and regret all at the same time, but he pulled it off nicely.

Like other book-readers, I wondered at the missing conversation with Jamie about Tyrion’s first “wife”. That was such a pivotal moment in the books it seemed like it had to be included.

But easily the high point in the episode for me was the fight between Brienne and Sandor Clegane. That worked out SO MUCH BETTER than The Hound’s “death” in the books. I liked pretty much everything about it, stretching back three episodes. First, the festering wound from Biter’s little hickey was a great piece of misdirection from the showrunners - book readers were fooled into thinking that Clegane would sink into infection and fever. Then, the whole re-routing of Brienne’s quest to head to the Bloody Gate instead of wandering aimlessly around the Riverlands. I think I (as a book reader) would have been completely surprised by the encounter if HBO hadn’t spoiled it in last week’s previews.

And the fight itself was fantastic. I loved the hardscrabble nature of the brawl, with both of them pulling out various dirty tricks in what they obviously regard as a fight to the death. There may have been too much quick-cut editing for this to be the best fight scene in Thrones, but it’s pretty high up on my personal list.

The final scene between Arya and The Hound was nicely played, mostly on Rory McCann’s part. His increasingly-desperate bantering to be killed was great. Maisie Williams was fine too, though really she just had to stare as if at a bug. Unlike in the book, I really am not sure if we’ll ever see The Hound again.

The Jon Snow stuff played out quite nicely. The battle scene with Stannis’ troops rampaging through the Wildling command center was really well executed. Unlike last week, you really did get a good sense of the scope of Stannis’ army and how outclassed the Northern Barbarians were. The decision to do far-overhead shots of the two cavalry prongs attacking from two sides was nice… any closer and I think we’d have been wondering if they used the “Total War” engine to render it, but as two quick shots it was great. [As an aside, the shot of Jon Snow walking through the snowy fields of the dead was really impressive]

The conversation between Jon Snow and Mance was well-acted, as was the exchange between Stannis and Mance.

What else was in this jam-packed episode? We got more Meereen stuff with Dany learning that it’s easier to break chains than to keep people from putting their selves back into them. And she locked up her kids in a pretty heartbreaking scene that was notable for both the CGI and the music.

Oh yeah! The CGI for the snow-zombies was really excellent. There was a flash or two of Harryhausen-like fakiness (possibly intentional?), but mostly that battle sequence was pretty good. I don’t know about the little girl tossing grenades - in my head I was hearing “Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt! Pew pew!”

I was not too impressed by Bloodraven. In my memory, the tree was growing through him; here he just kind of looked like Dumbledore sitting on a bunch of twigs. Kind of a let-down for the end of an epic journey.

The Jamie/Cersai scene was fine. The Kyburn stuff with soon-to-be FrankenMountain was fine. Am I missing anything? I guess the final shot of Arya sailing away, which was fine.

So… here we sit with pretty much most of the important stuff from Book 4 all done. Cersai has an interesting arc to go through still, and there is the whole election of Jon Snow to show, but for many of the main characters, the show has now outraced the books: Sansa, Bran, Brienne, Varys. Do we start next season out with Tyrion heading to Meereen? I guess Stannis’ battles with Roose Bolton and the siege of Winterfel. How many of the useless Book 4 and Book 5 characters do we see erased? For the first time in the HBO series, I really have little or no idea what they’re going to do next season.

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Keep in mind though, that in the books Tyrion never sends her away and breaks her heart like he does in the show. Her betrayal of him in the book came from out of nowhere. In the books he happens to find her in Tywins bed and she tries to bullshit him into forgiving her and he just kills her. This is also after Jaimes reveal of the true nature of the girl he was in love with in his youth.

I was completely wrong about Lady Stoneheart, but I won’t let that hold me back from making predictions again. The first half of Dance take places concurrently with AFFC. I could see next season covering half of the combined Crows/Dance story and then season 6 covering the other half. Hopefully GRRM will have the next book out by that time.

I expect next season to cover the Cersei plot against Margaery the season ending with the twist of Cersei being arrested. Tyrion up the point of his capture by Jorah Mormont. Daenerys up to her wedding. Arya’s first assassination and blinding. Jon’s election and beheading of janos. Jaime’s ending of the siege of Riverrun and his refusal to go help Cersei. The Dorne story from Crows. Sam and Aemon’s journey to the citadel. I have no idea what they’ll do with Bran besides him going north still. I also have no idea what they’ll do with Brienne, it’s a pretty big plot point in the books that she meets lady Stoneheart. Also, no idea what they’ll do with Theon and the Iron islands. Oh and Sansa at the Eyre…

Looking over that list it’s actually a lot to cover. Wouldn’t be surprised if it takes them 3 seasons to cover the combined Crows and Dance.

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I did miss the exchange between Tyrion and Jaime from the book.

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Yeah, that’s a pretty important character(s) moment that they skipped. Jaime is haunted in the coming months by Tyrion’s reveal/lie that Cersei was boning half the castle (although I guess in the show she kinda wasn’t?), while a huge source for Tyrion’s depression (and his murdering Tywin) is knowing that Tysha wasn’t a prostitute. Odd choice by the producers.

Also I’m really bummed that Jojen was killed! Between him and Grenn, that’s two characters killed that I liked just based on the performances of the actors. I hope they both get more work from this.

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Leaving out the Tysha stuff was a stupid move IMHO. They had at some point brought up that horrible story IIRC, how hard would it have been to bring it up again? Also it gives Tyrion a greater motivation to kill Tywin when he keeps referring to her as a whore.

Also the way it looked last night, it was almost as though the path to Varys and escape was through Tywin’s chambers?? In the book Tyrion specifically and consciously makes a detour and climbs the ladder through a narrow shaft because he wants to have it out with Tywin over Tysha.

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Also, I found it interesting that Varys leaves on the ship with Tyrion in the show. I guess that will give them at least an episode of banter while on the sea.

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It seemed pretty clear to me that Tyrion stopped on his way to escape and went back and climbed a ladder to get to Tywin’s chamber. But maybe my brain filled that part in. Anyway, at this point the show has caught up with as far as I have read in the series so from here on it’s all new to me! Though I guess they have already stolen a few things from future books along the way.

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Pogue’s right. The show has him looking up the stairway Jaime told him to go up to meet Varys, and then turning around and going somewhere else.

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I don’t think so. It will only be one season I think for the most part.

The Iron Islands stuff has been completely ignored. Even the death of Balon Greyjoy has not been shown yet. Hell, it may never be shown. Point is, the Euron/Damphair/Victarion stuff is out. We’re getting Drone, not the Iron Islands other than through Theon.

Sansa has essentially completed her story arc through AFFC/ADWD in Episode 8 where they were leaving the Eyrie. Harry the Heir may be completely written out. I think we are essentially into NEW MATERIAL with Sansa next season - though “new material” does not necessarily mean TWOW material. It may be things the writers invent to keep her busy while the others main characters catch up.

Jaime is not going north to deal with the Westerlings (who aren’t in the story) or Edmure. The official rumours are that he is headed south to Dorne.

I have no idea what’s up with Brienne and Pod, My guess is that they abandon the search for Arya and will move on to Sansa somehow. I guess we shall see, but it feels like Brienne is going to become a free agent for the writers for the next while.

Bran essentially completed 85% of his story arc in ADwD last night. He’ll have a few scenes at most and then his story moves into TWoW material.

Dany is stuck in Mereen and, like book readers, viewers will be bored silly with that problem. They’ll make up things for her to do and possibly get the Dothraki back into the tale earlier, somehow. I don’t have a lot of hope that D&D can make Mereen interesting. It just isn’t.

Jon has a lot of things to do next season, but it’s all quite manageable. A full slate every episode, but there’s time enough to get him elected Lord Commander, to send Sam and Aemon away, to deal with Stannis and Tormund and the Wildlings and to make a move on Ramsay before we get to his end. A full season – but there’s time.

Cersei does not need much time to have her court go to hell in a handbasket and engage in her competition with Margaery, which has been nicely progressing and set up this season. The pace will be fine.

The fact the Mountain has survived in part and we are shown it means that arc is going somewhere. We may see that next season or at the beginning of the season 6, but it’s no longer than that.

Arya will train next season. A full season, but nothing over the top and not much to leave out really. Easily doable.

Tyrion has some plotting to do with Varys and, maybe, Illyrio. They may have Young Griff and they may cut him out, too. I don’t think that’s necessarily resolved. Then we have Tyrion meeting up with Jorah and getting to Slaver’s Bay. The problem will be how long they can delay that and not bore us all silly.

So that’s the arc for next season and I don’t think that any of it requires more than one season to resolve. GRRM gets with D&D something he does not get with his publisher: an editor who means business, who isn’t asking GRRM to make cuts – they are MAKING THEM whether GRRM likes it or not – and the whole thing will move forward.

Given the popularity of the show, I don’t think HBO is in any rush to bring this thing to a conclusion in Season 7, but 8? Yup, that will probably do it for the show given the increase in actor’s salary costs beyond 7. If there is some material to stretch things out, that may happen, but I think it more likely the stretch will come with TWOW and ADOS, mainly because AFFC and ADwD are such poor novels in comparison to the first three, and in light of the fact that a good solid third of AFFC and ADwD deal with the Iron Islands and characters we are never going to see.

Come next season we are going to have larger portions of it which will come as more or less a complete surprise (Sansa, Bran, Brienne and much of Jaime) . And unless TWOW is released in 2015 (and, to be clear, I think it will be) we will ALL be unsullied for Season 6.

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Totally agree, easily the best of the fight scenes. Usually I don’t get a lot out of fights in these shows; they tend to take too long and have too little in the way of interesting reversals. This one was great, though. Between this and the Mountain/Viper fight earlier, they’ve done well with the one-on-one fighting this season.

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Really? I’d bet against that for sure. I think there’s about a 5% chance of that actually happening. 2016 is much more likely - he writes about 250 pages/year. There is zero chance ultimately of him keeping up with the books at this point.

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From that fan-theory about Tyrion before.

I can just imagine.

“You’re Not My Real Dad!!” yelling before sinking in the 2nd bolt.

I thought the Tywin death was well done. I do think that omitting the whole Tysha thing was a huge mistake, it was the fire that stoked the flames of Tyrion’s rage. And he ended up killing Shae anyway? That was good, but I think the way the book handled her betrayal was better. She was actively mean and horrible to Tyrion in the books, in the show she seemed distant and almost sad. Weird. But having her attack Tyrion rather than beg, made it work.

Final shot of Arya was awesome. I always tell non-book readers that she is definitely my favorite character, and soon they are all going to know way (Soon as in 10 months from now)

They have plenty of plot to go with next season. I think that the rumored “Jamie going to Dorne” plotline will be far more interesting than the stuff in the books. (Though I was really hoping for 2 episodes of John Q. Goutfoot staring at children playing in a fountain)

The show had me scared for a bit, but they won me back in the end. Ygritte’s death was just plain heartbreaking, and Tyrion’s last laugh and Father’s Day gift was perfect. Though I am annoyed at some of the more major book digressions (NO COLDHANDS?!?!?) and the lack of a certain undead mother (TEAM STONEHEART) I think that the Brienne/Clegane bowl (hopefully a precursor to the true Clegane Bowl, where Robert Strong is bested by his Thoros-ed up brother, resulting in Cersei’s death) was awesome. Brienne is a secret top-5 favorite character of mine, and giving her a chance to have a real fight with a really good opponent was great. The fight was brutal, and Brienne showed that she was able to bypass honor to win a fight.

Will this all lead up to her eventual hanging by L.S. and a last minute hound rescue?

I hope so, because my 2nd favorite character is definitely the hound, and Rory McCann’s performance of him was not only perfect, but better than I had even imagined. I really hope that the fan-theories are right, and he is only taking a book off. (Though the ending of that episode all but confirmed that he is not dead)

I think it is definitely possible that the Lady Stoneheart reveal is set for a big shocker for the end of next season. I know people are saying that L.S. is not ever going to appear, but I think that is a bit too big of a digression from the books.

Next season, Dany will get married to not only the wrong guy, but the even more wrong guy (Jorah is her true moon and stars) and the season after that will have her actual foretold betrayal. (The reason she kicks out Jorah is that he was the foretold betrayal, but in DwD we find out that Hizadahr is who the prophecy was speaking of)

So much to decompress. That season was the best yet, by far.

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The biggest problem for George was rebuilding his tale after the five year gap was nixed. It delayed new Tyrion, Jon, Bran and Dany chapters for more than 11 years after ASOS.

But GRRM had no trouble adding in more material from the King’s Landing post AFFC into ADwD. I think George knows where his tale is going now, and I also think the fact that he has never been a formal outline writer has had to be significantly modified and formalized because of the HBO series.

Please appreciate that despite the fact he says he does not write to an outline other than in his head, all that has now been changed. Last May, GRRM met with David Benioff, DB Weiss and Bryan Cogman in Santa Fe for the better part of a week. This stuff has not simply been explained to D&D; it’s been explained, audio recordings made, all of that distilled, ordered and arranged, typed up - put in memorandum form and sent back to him for him to check it to verify it for accuracy, etc…

That is the essence of a formal outline, which is what GRRM does not write to – which he now has. Accordingly, I think he will go much faster as a result and while ADoS will never be out before the TV series is concluded, I think a TWoW either next July or, more likely, November 2015 is a realistic expectation.

It doesn’t mean it will happen that way. You may very well prove correct. I wouldn’t bet a large amount of money on GRRM’s release dates until they are announced by his publisher at this point :)

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It’s been a long time since I read the books. But thought Brianne finds a witness that confirms the Hound’s death in AFFC.

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She does. And that witness is lying and Brienne walks right by the Hound and does not recognize him for who he is, too.

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While I agree with everyone who is saying that there is plenty more material to cover that has already been written, more than enough for an entire season 5, there is still the minor problem of the fact that none of it is particularly well suited to keeping the momentum the show has built thus far. Of the remaining material we already know about, there is no climatic battle or epic WTF moment to create a legendary Episode 9 in the same vein as previous seasons. Hell, there is barely enough action to limp each episode along. Most of what remains is pure character development and setup. That was the big problem with Feast and Dance, they just didn’t do epic on the same scope as Storm or even Clash. That’s not going to translate well to television.

The saving grace will need to come in the form of as-yet-unread material. As others have mentioned, many fan favorite story arcs are either ended for good, or have reached the point where there is little written about them that hasn’t already been shown. If the series wants to keep momentum, it’s going to have to delve into some all new territory for Season 5, and that could be exciting for everyone.