jg93
5661
Thanks for that Steel_Wind - great nuggets of info. While I may prove to be correct I certain hope you are!
In Brienne’s defense, I don’t know if she’d ever seen or met the Hound, had she?
I’m consistently surprised when readers believe there is enough material in AFFC/ADWD for 2 seasons. We’ve already almost finished Sansa and Bran’s ADWD stuff. Sure, they can use Bran to show flashbacks that weren’t in the TV series, possibly. Dany is already into her Dance material, and Theon’s is almost over as well. I have no idea what they are going to do with all the Iron Island stuff, though Dorne seems to be a lock. Then again, I don’t really know why Asha/Yara was in this season if they didn’t plan to have her do something next season.
Even if the showrunners just start making up stuff to happen to Theon, Bran and Sansa (which they will have to do next season if we are going to see them more than roughly twice), they are going to have to choose between just running in place (see Bran’s adventure at Crasters rape hut this season), or delving into TWOW material. Either way, book readers need to prepare themselves to be significantly spoiled next season if TWOW isn’t out yet, which it is unlikely to be.
As for Stoneheart, I’d be happy if she never made an appearance. She does nothing crucial in the books, and honestly lessens some of the impact of the Red Wedding. I know I’m in the minority, but if they don’t do it, I won’t be sad. My guess is that she is either in the cold open for S5E1 or the end of S5E1, if she is in at all. Maybe she can run around with Gendry or something, assuming he didn’t drown or isn’t still rowing.
I think the Stoneheart reveal is something that they can use next season as a shocking turn/reveal.
Scuzz
5665
I hope not. I really was disappointed when she showed up in the book. If any character can die and “come back to life” then it really cheapens the GRRM “anyone can die” factor.
You’re going to be really disappointed with Jon Snow then.
I think we’re all pretty used to that at this point.
Scuzz
5668
That’s where I was going with my complaint. Why invest anything emotionally in a characters death if they get a do over?
For me the big puzzlement is why anyone cares so much about the Stoneheart thing. In the larger scheme of things that’s a very minor subplot at best. On the tv show it would be worth what? A shocking twist? Not really, not on a show with zombie type creatures. Any tv viewer shocked by it hasn’t been paying attention. Then what do you do with the character that makes the screen time worth it? Some revenge? Who cares?
If you can’t imagine why television viewers wouldn’t want a little revenge after those 4 seasons, you’re incapable of understanding human emotion. Give up now.
Pod
5671
You already seem quite invested in the other theory. But:
]
Viserys is public and everyone knows about him. Aegon is hidden and secret and, I believe, therefore much harder for people to accept, whether or not he’s alive. IF you pull him out of the bag AND Viserys is still alive, then will people believe it? Will Viserys challenge it and actually make Aegon less credible? I can easily see why they wouldn’t make Plan B Plan A… Plus, they could have had a Dothraki horde with Plan A.
I don’t get how it’s so cut and dry and QED’d to the max for you?
[/spoiler
[spoiler]
As for the show:
So: What the fuck? Jojen is dead (all the better for jojen paste)? Children of the forest being actual little kid-like-people with grenades?? Insane! Brienne pushes Gregor down a hill and Arya refuses to go with her? That says a lot about Arya – but I also feel they dodged why she didn’t meet Sansa or why the guards didn’t keep her.
LSH, I’m not too bothered. I didn’t see her as having much significance in the books. She’s been in two scenes, right? Big deal. If she does more, the show can bring her back. I wasn’t that shocked when she appeared. If anything I was a bit miffed – she’s dead. Let her stay dead. Bringing her back just felt like “who else is next? Undead Ned?”. Like someone said above, it definitely cheapened things for me.
At least they ditched the whole “where do whores go?” thing. That was repetitive and annoying, and I think the writers can easily twist Shae’s betrayal and Tywin’s hypocrisy into fuel for his anger.
Steel_Wind: re: Tyrion/3 heads of a dragon etc
How do you feel about the “You are/are not my son” lines from Tywin? Especially regarding the whole 3 dragons thing. I’ve read many accounts that try to pin Tyrion as being a secret targ. I’ve never really been swayed by them, and I suspect these lines might add to their insistence. To me it’s always been Tywin sort of disowning his monstrous son.
I heard “There are some who call me…Tim?”
I only wish for the part with The Mountain would have been to be a bit more of explanation why he was being kept alive and perhaps worked in a bit more of the politics involved (Oberyn’s death, implications of the possibility Stannis trying to win over Sunspear, etc.)
— Alan
Personally, I’m pretty convinced of it at this point. In the book there’s only the latter rhetoric from Tywin in the privy scene. In fact, it’s the last thing he says.
GRRM has said in interviews why he’s interested in the fantasy elements, specifically a) for fun, and b) to the extent that they create a world that’s more boldly coloured than real life, so the human emotions (the “human heart in conflict with itself”, the Faulkner quote GRRM often references as driving his art) take on a heightened feel.
It’s rather like when you go on holiday - the doors of perception are cleansed, there’s a freshness and aliveness to your perception, because you haven’t seen that street in the beach town a thousand times.
Likewise, fantasy and s-f have the virtue that the unfamiliarity of the backdrop heightens your perception. e.g. you could have a family drama set in an American suburb, but certain elements of that scenario turn your mind off because of the dreadful familiarity of it all. Set the same family drama in a somewhat unfamiliar setting, where (espeially with magic/s-f elements) it’s possible that anything might happen, where the patterns aren’t so set, then you have something that has a sort of hyper-real feel to it.
I thought the Jason and the Argonauts bit was fine, and I had no problem with the fireballs, but I guess some folks have a “threshold” for that kind of stuff - thus far and no farther, we’ll accept dragons and giants and mammoths and white walkers and zombies, but weird prehistoric fairy folk throwing fireballs? nooooo, we draw the line there :)
Awesome episode, this has been my favourite season so far. I particularly enjoyed Arya’s coldness. I actually don’t find her getting that cold till quite a bit later in the books, and I was a bit worried when Maisie said she’d be playing it like that at the end of last season, but I think they’re handling it fine, and she still has moments of the cute tomboy “old Arya” (like when she smiles at Brienne). Dany chaining her dragons was sad. And what can you say about that Brienne vs. Hound fight? One of the most visceral 1 on 1 fights ever done in tv or movies, I think. Stannis finally got the dignity he deserved, as one of the few people in the kingdom who actually cares enough about his duty to the kingdom as a whole to deserve the title “king”. Tywin’s incomprehension of what was happening (vs. both Cersei and Tyrion) was brilliantly played by Charles Dance. Ever the player, he thinks he can talk his way out of it right till the last minute. And needless to mention the excellence of Dinklage’s performance. Everyone’s just at the top of their game in this show, everyone involved.
(f)Aegon could go either way, imo. There are reasonable arguments for him being legit and otherwise. Him being Ilyrio’s son is one of the more fun reaching theories, the most fun theory is that Varys is actually a woman and (f)Aegon is Ilyrio and Varys’ child, but that is ridiculously crackpot with no foreshadowing. Slightly more absurd than even Daario = Euron. But it would be fun. I actually think Jaimie/Cersei being secret Targs is actually more likely than Tyrion, but your guess is as good as mine. I guess I appreciate the irony of both the boys having killed their own fathers. I’d be ok with no more secret Targs though, they are getting about as old as fake deaths.
Back to the episode, my only real qualm with it was the removal of the Tysha story, which is what instigates the murders and the falling out between Jaime and Tyrion (omitted, oops) and Jaime realizing Cersei has taken numerous other lovers. Also, the Shae pulling a knife on Tyrion thing smelled a lot like a “Han didn’t shoot first!” Lucas revision. It was straight up cold-blooded murder in the books, in no way justifiable. The show lets him plead self-defense. Because of course. Overall I think they are doing a very good adaptation. Other than that scene, the Jaime/Cersei rape-scene and the absolutely mind-boggling omission of Coldhands (not because he is an important character, but because it would have made Bran’s storyline WAAAAY less boring for viewers), I’m pretty happy. I’d score it a B+ for the season.
olaf
5677
Show continues to trump the books, shame on you Martin. I expect season 5 to debut before book 6.
The only knock I have on this episode was the lack of the Tysha reveal. I am surprised they never rolled that out considering it would have added more weight to the Tyrion-Tywin finale.
I am sure that Catelyn/Stoneheart will be in the show. They just didnt need that in the finale, it was completely full already and went well over the average 55 minute run time. April 2015 cant get here soon enough.
I haven’t read past book 3, but if you guys are complaining about what little meat there is for season 5, why wouldn’t they throw Lady Stoneheart in there? I understand it would be nice not to add too much high fantasy, but beggars can’t be choosers.
Not looking to get into a debate since I haven’t read the books. Just throwing that out there.
Did I imagine it, or did they tell the Tysha story at some point on the show (I could swear that they had, minus of course the detail that she had in fact been legit)? Which makes it doubly strange that they didn’t bring it up again and reveal the final detail on the fateful night of Tyrion’s escape.
Tyrion tells the story to Shae and Bronn shortly after meeting Shae.
