Agreed, this Baelish plotline makes ZERO strategic sense knowing what we (as viewers) know. Perhaps there is some bit of information relevant to this plotline that has not been revealed yet (and is not in the books obviously since we’ve diverged significantly from that path), but right now this looks like a really poor move on everyone’s part. Baelish has to know Ramsey is a monster, Bolton has to know Baelish cannot be trusted, and no matter how much power the Lannisters have lost, they still control King’s Landing and the only intact army in Westeros.
My suspicion is that Baelish is in league with Highgarden, and that the TV writers will retcon it so that Olenna (the matriarch of the Highgarden clan) and Baelish conspired form the start to kill Joffrey and spirit Sansa away, with the intent that Baelish would take Sansa north and try the exact same tactic (marry her off to Ramsey, then Ramsey ends up dead somehow), followed by a betrayal of Bolton and the end result of Loris Tyrell marrying the widowed Sansa Stark so that the Tyrell family has claim to both King’s Landing and Winterfell.
Maybe the thought was the change would invoke his father and Ice more solidly?
It doesn’t… at least not from a plot standpoint. I think the showrunners just want to keep Sophie Turner and Aidan Gillen on-screen for this season rather than holed up at The Vale playing petty politics. This way we get to see a version of the Ramsey/Theon/Blizzard plotline, but with characters that we care more about.
But really, it flies in the face of a lot of logic: can we really believe that Littlefinger - a man with spies everywhere - would know about Roose Bolton legitimizing his bastard sone but NOT know about that same son flaying the lords of nearby noble houses?
I liked all the Kings Landing scenes and (as always), Lena Headey and Natalie Dormer hit it out of the park whenever they are on-screen. The fact that they were in a couple scenes together is just gravy.
How old is Tommen supposed to be here? In the books he’s like 10, but I guess in the show we’re looking at more like 14 or 15, right?
The Wall stuff was pretty good, and I really like the “Frenemy” thing they’ve got going between Snow and Thorne.
The conversation between Pod and Brienne was well-executed too.
Overall a decent episode, but I kind of wish something would actually HAPPEN.
Exodor
6024
I think Petyr’s little “avenge your family” speech to Sansa tells us that he’s not expecting her to meekly marry Ramsay and bear his children.
No mention of Jonathan Pryce holding a maester’s class in humble charismatic menace in his scene?
It’s the only bridge that he has. He doesn’t hold the Vale or little Robert Arryn and by marrying Sansa to Ramsay he’s not going to be able to control Sansa either. His last deal was with Olenna and Highgarden but Olenna knows that he is an untrustworthy snake. The only person dumb enough to trust him is and was Cersei (and Ned Stark).
Cersei makes a great pawn - she doesn’t realize she is being manipulated but she isn’t deeply stupid, you can’t spit in her face, and marrying Sansa to Ramsay instead of delivering her to KL for execution will make her furious. The whole move seems strange to me. I understand that the showrunners want to involve Baelish and Sansa with more of the cast and they need to get them out of the Vale. It would have been more plausible to me to have Baelish (using Arryn as a tacit hostage) rally the Vale to root out Bolton from Winterfell and then ensconce himself and Sansa there in the aftermath.
I think Bolton’s wisest move would be to execute Baelish immediately. He has nothing else he can deliver.
Meh, the whole thing makes the characters behave dumbly just to advance the plot.
I suppose. I’d submit that if it was good enough for GRRM it should be good enough for the show. I never thought of myself as a hopeless ASOFAI fanboy, but looking back at my past few posts, I definitely am writing like one.
Yup. I don’t know exactly what Littlefinger has planned, or how his scheme works without getting himself killed by Roose Bolton, (who is no dummy) but it seemed obvious to me that his plot involves Sansa getting to see the Boltons pay for their betrayal.
Pretty much my reaction to all three episodes thus far. I realize they have to spend time setting things up, but that doesn’t make me any less bored with waiting.
I wish they hadn’t cut Bran and the ice walkers out of season 5. I was happy to see his story moving along at the end of last season, and now, nothing.
rowe33
6030
I sure hope they have a good idea of what they’re doing with the whole Sansa plot line. I’m with you guys on the absurdness of it but I’m trying to stay positive they have a decent enough plan.
I like the Jon scene this week - taking no crap for insubordination. And Thorne steps aside to let the right thing be done.
The Arya scenes were also pretty good. I’m really looking forward to watching her training and eventually find out where the storyline leads.
I’ve also forgotten a lot of the last book so the Jorah appearance at the end was a welcome semi-surprise.
Teiman
6031
With Tywin dead is time to build new alliances. Petyr is making a move, and we don’t know what is on this character head, except he is very good at the game… so what he does is probably the better calculated movement he can do. Is not a bad move, he will be friend of Sansa, but also of the Bolton. Too bad the plan burn alliances with Cersei, but at this point Cersei is only the future grandmother.
I’m not really sure all that’s true in the HBO show though.
In the books, Littlefinger is reviled as an upstart by the Lords of the Vale, and they actually lay siege to the Eyrie when he ascends to the throne there. But in the show I don’t think we’ve really seen any indication of that dislike – he seems to be on good terms with Lord Royce, and his giving young Robyn up for fostering seems to be popular with the few Valeites that we’ve seen… in fact, I’d go so far as to suggest that he is more popular than Lysa ever was. It’s true that he is just a regent and if anything were to happen to Robyn he’d be out on his ass, but in the HBO show he pretty much does “hold” The Vale as much as that is possible for him.
I think Littlefinger expects his protege to be cunning and survive whatever comes her way. e.g., I fully expect that Ramsay’s henchgirl (who the camera briefly focusses on as Littlefinger & co arrive at Winterfell) will try to get Sansa into trouble, but Sansa will outmaneouvre her and she’ll become the sump for Ramsay’s sadistic tendencies. He’ll then be pleased with Sansa and she’ll take over as his henchgirl, and eventually manipulate Theon into killing him.
If that’s the case, if Littlefinger expects Sansa to survive and be the Stark at Winterfell, then whatever strategy he’s cooking up will depend to some extent on that (although doubtless he has a backup if that fails) - and maybe he’s simply hedging his bets. i.e. if Stannis comes and kills the Boltons, well and good, Stannis will be happy with a Stark in Winterfell too. If Bolton manages to rally the North (having a Stark at Winterfell) and he beats Stannis, perhaps with Eyrie aid, also well and good. Either of those two outcomes will have their natural follow-throughs.
That’s about as far as I can see, but I think the “hedging bets” is probably fairly definite. After all, no plan survives contact with the enemy, and someone like Baelish will hardly have become successful just by having one plan that he stolidly sticks to. He’ll have pieces prepared for all sorts of chaotic possibilities to come, even if he might prefer one or another.
I do like that Tyrell idea as the mid-to-long-term game plan though. :)
The season is definitely warming up with this episode though, some great stuff in all the segments, no “fluff” or wasteage (e.g. of the likes of Grey Worm and whatshername) that I could see.
Without Tywin, the Lannisters will be cut down to size, sooner or later. So anyone who has tied themselves to the Lannister fortunes needs a new plan ASAP. Thus, it makes sense to me that Baelish and Bolton would deal with each other, if in a fairly hostile manner. The two of them working together adds up to more than each acting separately, I think that’s what they see and why they’re doing it.
Baelish is playing a long game. This thing with Sansa marrying a Bolton is merely a step to whatever he has planned. Bolton undoubtedly sees Littlefinger as useful in the same way everyone in Kings Landing did, Littlefinger wasn’t killed when he was operating back there. Cersei and everyone else worked with or used him. You certainly don’t trust him but a sneaky guy like that can be helpful when you need to get things done.
Scuzz
6035
I haven’t seen any of the show this year but I have read the books, which don’t help anymore, but, what if Littlefinger by putting Sansa in the Boltons camp makes them choose between Sansa and Cersei. Won’t Cersei ask for Sansa when she finds out, and then the Bolton’s will be forced to choose sides again?
That’s partially answered by Roose himself in last night’s episode - he’s trying to explain to Ramsey why they can’t expect any Lannister material help while dealing with the Lords of the North. He says something along the lines of “We’re thousands of miles from a Lannister army, and no Lannister force of any size has come this far North in all of recorded history.”
That same logic argues why they can keep Sansa as a figurehead/broodmare: the Lannisters are simply too far away and have enough to keep themselves busy. Cersei would certainly want Sansa back… but with her Uncle Kevin gone, she has no ability to actually take her.
I guess that’s the only bit that falls apart for me. If Ramsay publically marries Sansa, the Lannisters will demand her return for treason and assisting regicide. That invalidates any worth she’d be to the Boltons for legitimizing Ramsay’s hold on Winterfell. (And like I said, Roose isn’t stupid. He knows everyone in the Stark lands hates him and his bastard.) If Ramsay marries her in secret, then what’s the point?
Also, I don’t buy the idea that the Lannisters wouldn’t move heaven and earth to get at Sansa and anyone sheltering her.
Teiman
6038
I agree with this, but I see more in the character, perhaps I am wrong.
I think he want to abolish the kingdown and create a republic.
At the same time, is a character that can be the best friend of his enemies, while being friend of his enemies is what help him more.
I think of him has a Agent of Chaos. Except he never find the moment to release the chaos payload, he would indefinably delay that while he amass more power.
But hive him a instant where he can raise himself as the absolute power, and he will become Oliver Cromwell. Is just that the instant never happened, and maybe is too soon historically.
In a way, I think he is naive, and for that his plans are slightly flawed. Like a very smart children (I am not saying he is childish).
I think you’re overestimating what people, like the Boltons, think of the Lannisters now. No Tywin= no fear of them necessary until proven otherwise. Roose is a northerner, so like Ned he doesn’t know much about southern politics. That’s why he needed Littlefinger to clue him in. Cersei is going to demand the north send Sansa back to her from Winterfell?!?! Hahaha, yeah right! House Tyrell, because of Margaery, is the Lannister’s only real ally, and even then they only case so far as Margaery remains queen, the Lannisters could all die and they won’t care. I sure don’t think they are going to fight in the north on Cersei’s say so.
Obviously, with book knowledge, we know Cersei is going to be busy with her own Sparrow issues, but I still don’t see how the Lannisters don’t demand Sansa’s head when they find out she’s alive. We have the luxury of knowing that the Lannisters are toothless now, but that’s not true outside of King’s Landing. They’re still the ruling power and they just got done with two victories against their enemies. Tywin being dead doesn’t change the fact that the king of Westeros commands a huge army.
Roose doesn’t strike me as a guy that thumbs his nose at them without some real badass backup. The fact that he’s adamant about making Ramsay understand their precarious position tells me that he also knows how dangerous it is for them now. It’s doubly puzzling to me since he could carry out whatever evil plan he had previously without marrying his son to Sansa and showing his hand early like he’s about to. Plus, and this is the real stickler, how does Roose and Ramsay not know that Sansa must absolutely despise them and will try to kill them in their sleep the first chance she gets.
