Did you miss the part where she covered up the murder of her own Aunt, complete with tears and the most believable cover story, ever? All on her own? She wasn’t prompted by LF to do that – that was her own plan.
You keep referencing things from the books as if it is that way on the show. It isn’t. LF is more in command of the Vale on the show than in the books. Sansa is more complicit and dark on the show than in the books. Sansa on the show is 18 and a stunning young woman - and she’ll absolutely use sex as a weapon, too, if needs be.
This version of Sansa is now a viper. Would she kill? Without a doubt. Problem is, Ramsay is a terrifying nutjob. So we’ll see.
Whether Brienne has a role in ultimately rescuing her or not is unclear. My guess is that Theon will continue to have that role as he did in the books and that Brienne’s trying to be close to Sansa may have an impact after the initial escape, only. Sansa is more likely to simply be the magnet that brings Brienne near Stannis. And then Stannis will die.
If Brienne even gets close enough to Stannis to do such a thing I will be disappointed. “Justice for Renly!” isn’t something that really demands that level of closure, nawmsayn? And while her using “Oathkeeper” to join her BFF in the ranks of Kingslaying would be cute, the simple fact is Stannis deserves a grander death than just getting fucking stabbed.
If he’s gotta go, let it be via dragonbreath or by a walker, not by getting caught up in some b-reel drama.
I’m enjoying reading this thread but just having a tough time seeing how putting Sansa into the Fake Arya role doesn’t do damage to the following:
a) It makes Littlefinger seem less shrewd and more desperate. He had plenty of opportunity in the book to deal Sansa to Bolton. If that match is such a great deal for Littlefinger why wouldn’t he make that choice in the book? I think the answer is that the show’s timetable doesn’t allow for it but what is sacrificed is this makes Littlefinger look less shrewd. If it was really the smartest play - then Littlefinger in the book would have made it.
b) If Ramsay doesn’t try to torture and kill Sansa then this is just another whitewash of his character. He is barely controlled when Roose is in the same room. He’s the most evil character in the books (and the show) by a long stretch. Sex and love aren’t motivating for him - creating horror is what motivates him. You can’t seduce a psychopath and the show basically spent all of season 3 demonstrating that Ramsay is utterly unredeemable. I really hope Sansa isn’t going to try to redeem him because that makes her either hopelessly naive or just plain dumb.
c) Roose should definitely suspect a long con. Roose isn’t supposed to be stupid and the last thing Roose knows about Baelish is that he had a suspiciously brief marriage to Lysa Arryn nee Tully and was previously master of coin for the Lannisters and now he just shows up in Moat Cailin with Sansa Stark. He should have a million questions for Littlefinger, such as: Why would Sansa consent to this match? Or, if she doesn’t consent why is she listening to the man that betrayed her father? I murdered her brother AND her mother and she still wants to marry my son, what’s wrong with her? How do I know she isn’t pregnant with Joffrey’s bastard?
It’s what grates me the most about the showrunner’s decisions - the characters are doing things purely to move the plot forward. It’d be a lot easier to swallow if Baelish was thrown out of the Vale because his bullshit wasn’t tolerated and he and Sansa were forced to seek refuge. I’m very much concerned we’re going to see more dumbing down of otherwise shrewd characters in the next couple of episodes.
I think we’re watching two different shows because you’re engaging in some serious expectation projection here.
Littlefinger’s grip on the Vale is actually irrelevent since he’s left that region 100s of miles away and handed himself over to the whimsies of the Boltons.
I think it’s right that Sansa is “Dark” in this show, as she isn’t (at least not yet) in the books. Her covering up for Littlefinger in the Vale was cold, and I think she’s now quite capable of being a fitting protege and capable of killing (or rather getting others killed).
Hence: Myranda (Ramsay’s henchgirl) will be jealous and try to get Sansa in trouble.
Sansa will turn the tables.
Ramsay will admire this, and it will distract him from Sansa, and he will torture and kill Myranda. Ramsay under control for a bit, as he thinks of Sansa as his cool new henchgirl. This is only a stopgap, as Ramsay is bound to turn on her eventually; but will show Sansa’s strength and cunning.
Sansa bolsters Reek and gets him to kill Ramsay - but probably only at the last minute, when Ramsay’s about to focus on Sansa (maybe even about to torture her).
Sophie Turner’s recent cryptic comments in the NY Times & elsewhere about a shocking scene and Alfie Allen’s similar comments earlier in the year would tend to indicate that the marriage / rape of Sansa by Ramsay and Reek is probably in the offing.
That’s not to say that other horrible things won’t happen, but Sansa’s not dodging this bullet.
JonRowe
6068
Well, before I write anything, this is a spoiler thread for dirty book readers.
That out of the way.
I think that B and W are placing Sansa in the “Fake Arya” (Jeyne Poole) role from the books. This is a good way to have the awful stuff that is about to happen to Sansa hurt more. If Ramsay was just torturing a fake Stark it wouldn’t have the impact of Sansa being hurt. Overall, this is probably a better dramatic choice.
BUT.
It makes NO FUCKING SENSE! how they got there.
Littlefinger, in the books, can barely hide his hard-on around Sansa, and is deeply in love with the daughter who reminds him a lot of her mother. Why in the hell would he ever give her over to Ramsay Snow? It is a known fact that Ramsay is twisted, and that the whole Bolton clan is awful. How could you send someone you love into the arms of horrific torture. Littlefinger is a shrewd player of the game, but he has always had a weakness for the Stark girls. This would probably lead him to…
Giving the Boltons a fake Arya. The Boltons don’t know what Arya/Sansa look like, and marrying Ramsay to a fake Arya accomplishes everything that is happening in the show, without sacrificing Sansa’s health. Why play with your own chips when you can play with house money? Why risk Sansa when you don’t have to?
What happens to Jeyne Poole (Fake Arya) in the books is something that no-one would wish on anyone.
I think that shot of the hand-maidens may have been some Spear-wives in disguise that will come into play later after the marriage. I wonder if they are going to have Ramsay actually die, rather than just have Sansa and Theon escape.
Things are going to get real weird. I am really disliking how they are truncating some things in the show and using weird decisions uncharacteristic of the characters to move the plot forward.
I really liked the scenes between Podrick and Brienne though. Giving her more depth than she had in the books is great. I also loved how they made her seem less dense. She knew Renly would never love her, but he was a good man who she sword to protect. In the books it comes off that she was lovestruck with a gay man, and in the show she seems more wise and pragmatic.
Mr_Zero
6069
How would Littlefinger know it? As he says in the episode, he’s got no dossier on the guy, and it’s not like there is Westerosi TMZ. Seems like people want Littlefinger to be omniscient, which is odd; usually people complain about those sorts of characters.
Why play with your own chips when you can play with house money? Why risk Sansa when you don’t have to?
Sansa’s already been cultivated, easier to control and easier to trust than a fake Arya.
Littlefinger doesn’t have to be omniscient to know that the Boltons are cruel and traitorous. They’ve literally got two skinned people hanging over the gates when he rolls in. That should be evidence enough that these guys are bad news.
Ignoring that, we know Littlefinger knows the Boltons are untrustworthy fuckers. He says that to Sansa when he’s cajoling her into getting revenge. As for Ramsay being a sick fuck, you can’t tell me that word hasn’t gotten to Littlefinger that the kid really likes to play with his victims before killing them in horrible ways.
Mr_Zero
6071
Littlefinger doesn’t have to be omniscient to know that the Boltons are cruel and traitorous. They’ve literally got two skinned people hanging over the gates when he rolls in. That should be evidence enough that these guys are bad news.
Littlefinger is cruel and traitorous. Littlefinger is bad news! I don’t think it’s strange that Littlefinger would traffic with serpents, he’s as slithery as Roose.
But… I don’t know why I can’t? The victims don’t talk, Roose isn’t gonna broadcast that, Winterfell is a long way away from the Vale. How would hear about it? Why would he not dismiss it as rumors?
I’ve never been fond of nitpicking stories for character logic – whatever gets us the best drama is what I want – but I understand why people do it with something like a horror movie when the character runs upstairs when the killer shows up. In this case, everyone’s presuming the existence of some Ramsay memo that Littlefinger left on his desk.
Plotting with fellow heels is fine. I get that. Littlefinger putting the object of his obsession into the Bolton’s care is dumb.
THERE ARE TWO SKINNED BODIES ON THE RAMPARTS. THAT’S NOT A RUMOR.
I’m not nitpicking. I’m straight up saying that this whole section of the show makes no sense at all.
Edit: Mostly, I’m disputing the current characterization of Littlefinger. It’s not at all consistent with the established character in the show. What they’ve shown of him so far is that he’s a master player of the game and despite what he says to Roose, he doesn’t leave anything to chance. Ever. This marriage of Sansa to Ramsay is completely a gamble that puts him and his gal at the mercy of a psychopath and a known traitor.
Mr_Zero
6073
He tells Roose in the episode that he gambles with his assets. Isn’t it possible that he still sees Sansa as an asset?
THERE ARE TWO SKINNED BODIES ON THE RAMPARTS. THAT’S NOT A RUMOR.
I’m not nitpicking. I’m straight up saying that this whole section of the show makes no sense at all.
Sure, there are skinned bodies. But that’s practically window dressing in an ASOIAF castle! Unless you rate a skinned body as substantially more fucked up than a tarred and severed head.
Yes, I think a skinned body is more fucked up than a tarred head. Even in the ASOIAF world, there are degrees of cruelty. A beheading is considered a normal way to execute people. Tarring and displaying the head is a well-known way to publicize that justice was done. When people on the show talk about “the flayed man” of the Boltons, they do so in a manner that shows they think it’s fucked up.
I think the Sansa plotline is going to depend on what happens next. Let’s torture Sansa? Littlefinger’s a moron, this makes no sense! Sansa can handle herself? Just as Littlefinger intended, she’ll end up on the Iron Throne yet!
Agreed - this marriage isn’t consistent with Littlefinger. And what is he getting out of it anyway?
Mr_Zero
6077
Fair enough, I guess Littlefinger must be an extremely ambitious man to risk involvement with these sadists. Do you agree that the show has put enough explanation into the text to justify Littlefinger’s reaction? Or do you think that even if there were no books, only the show, that this move would still bother you?
JonRowe
6078
This is totally true. It really comes down to how it all plays out.
FYI, Littlefinger knows how Ramsay is, it is an open secret. Like Renly’s sexual orientation, it is known but not talked about. You don’t hunt people in the woods and have tortured screaming coming from your bedchambers without people taking notice. I think the first time you hear about the Boltons you hear rumors about how they torture people and flay them alive. Littlefinger has heard those rumors… I assure you. In a world where the communication lines are Ravens flying notes, communication is slow. But you can bet that Littlefinger, like Varys, has his own ways of collecting all of the information he needs to play the game.
If things do turn out in death of Ramsay Bolton by poison or by Sansa wielded knife… it all works out. (Also, she is getting her family revenge body count game with Arya started)
None of this is in the books (yet) and I doubt it will be as winterfell is in a completely different situation in the books now.
I think they will end up offing Ramsay in the show, as it didn’t make much sense to me to not have him die in the books (yet) during the great escape.
I really can’t wait for the snow to happen though. I loved how it was described in the books. “Winter” is coming, but also Winter is coming.
I think they are setting up to have Theon kill Ramsay in the woods during the great escape with Sansa.
I’m feeling a little more… surprise it’s Podrick to Ramsay’s ultimate ending. That’s if they go totally off script.
Otherwise, it will be season 6 and Jon Targaryen.
