Game of Thrones (HBO)

[gameoverman]

I hadn’t thought about Dany that way, but it’s true, she sort of the Anti-Stannis when it comes to right and wrong. She has no line, she’ll hop back and forth as needed. Plus she’s very personable, which is also the exact opposite of Stannis. This explains why she’s ruling(if poorly) in her lands and he’s not.

As far as feeding that guy to the dragons, I thought that was to send a message. It’s not that she knows who is behind it all, it’s that she’s saying “YOU rich guys need to find out who is doing this and stop them or you’ll pay for what they are doing”. You know how in movies when a bad guy kills the gang’s leader and tells his minions “You work for me now”? That’s what she was doing.

I think Varys would help Dany because she’s from the right family and has a legitimate claim, plus from his current vantage point she probably looks pretty good, freeing slaves and all.

[Incendiary_Lemon]

Doesn’t seem like a stretch to me.

Dany is an impetuous child, she’s hardly ready for the Throne - and she may never be ready. Would Varys really back someone who was so rash, so quick to leap?

I think Varys would help Dany because she’s from the right family and has a legitimate claim, plus from his current vantage point she probably looks pretty good, freeing slaves and all.

Varys doesn’t really care about families ties though, he’s interested in competence - hence Aegon.

[ineffablebob]

Dany is an impetuous child, she’s hardly ready for the Throne - and she may never be ready. Would Varys really back someone who was so rash, so quick to leap?
Varys doesn’t really care about families ties though, he’s interested in competence - hence Aegon.

Guess it depends on how much you think Varys cares about staying alive and in power. Yes, he wants the Throne in good hands, but Dany is his only real choice if he’s going to be a significant part of it. I have no trouble believing that he’s motivated to put himself in the best position to influence the next ruler. He probably truly believes that with himself (and Tyrion) as advisers, Dany will be the best choice.

[John_Reynolds]

Varys doesn’t really care about families ties though, he’s interested in competence - hence Aegon.

We don’t know the total population of GRRM’s fictional world, but even if still at the 10s of millions I find your statement odd considering the only players backed by Varys and Illyrio have been Targs. They DO seem to care entirely about putting a Targ back on the Iron Throne. . .we just don’t know why yet.

Edit: And Plan A for V + I was Dany’s brother, hardly a model of mature competence.

[Nesrie]

I hadn’t thought about Dany that way, but it’s true, she sort of the Anti-Stannis when it comes to right and wrong. She has no line, she’ll hop back and forth as needed. Plus she’s very personable, which is also the exact opposite of Stannis. This explains why she’s ruling(if poorly) in her lands and he’s not.

As far as feeding that guy to the dragons, I thought that was to send a message. It’s not that she knows who is behind it all, it’s that she’s saying “YOU rich guys need to find out who is doing this and stop them or you’ll pay for what they are doing”. You know how in movies when a bad guy kills the gang’s leader and tells his minions “You work for me now”? That’s what she was doing.

I think Varys would help Dany because she’s from the right family and has a legitimate claim, plus from his current vantage point she probably looks pretty good, freeing slaves and all.

She’s also what 16… in the book. I mean she has a lot of growing up to do in a world that’s trying to kill her or use her. Stannis is a full grown man feeding people to the fire at the whim of some woman. I like Stannis, and I think they did a good job on the last episode with his daughter, but he hasn’t earned anything from me. He’s no fool, but he’s also no Ned Stark.

[JonRowe]

Even though she is not perfectly well mannered. She successfully went from being sold to a horse lord to taking over 2 cities and freeing a bunch of slaves. That is a pretty good track record of getting shit done.

[z22]

The fight was terrible, there is no way to justify it. The Sons of the Harpy are depicted both in the books and the TV show as the upper class of Meereen, a city full of slaves that has hired outsiders to do the bulk of it’s fighting for it for hundreds of years. There is simply no way they are suddenly vicious and experienced guerilla warfare fighters. Contrast that to the Unsullied, who are regarded (again in both book and show) as some of the best heavy infantry money can buy. “Trapping” 10 Unsullied soldiers in a 10’ wide corridor should have resulted in two lines of 5 Unsullied each facing in either direction with shields up and spears out. They would have ground the unarmored, knife wielding Sons of the Harpy into sausage in seconds. Ser Barristan is a renowned swordsman and tactician. He’s a trained close-combat veteran and is in armor with a longsword. He should have churned through half a dozen unarmored knife wielding opponents like butter. Instead we get a fight scene only directors obviously unfamiliar with fight scenes could have put together. It was clumsy, it was awkward and it made absolutely zero sense.

Much the same way Littlefinger’s actions are making zero sense. He’s now abandoning Sansa with a known psychopath in a castle he knows is about to be besieged by an army. While there is little chance Stannis will harm Sansa (as they discuss), there is a huge possibility that Ramsey will when he sees his world crashing down around him. Best case is that Bolton and Ramsey us Sansa as a hostage to secure their escape. Leaving her in that situation is ridiculous.

But not so ridiculous as the Sand Snakes. I had to do a double take as it looked and sounded like Michelle Rodriguez was playing the role of Obara. It wasn’t, but the actress was equally as wooden and jarring in the role. Ellaria is also terrible, so together with the very poor scripting the Sand Snakes have become a confusing and laughable sub-plot without context (the Prince, the plot with Myrcella, etc.) to give them a reason to exist in the show.

I started out this season excited that the plot changes away from the books would bring a sense of mystery and anticipation I had not yet experienced (as a book reader) with the show. That is looking less and less likely with each episode as I feel only confusion and disappointment at the way characters have been acting and events have been unfolding. It is obvious that whomever is scripting the new plot points for the show is not a novelist and has very little sense of continuity of actions for characters in a lengthy story. Suddenly everything seems much more “made for TV” than in the previous four seasons, and ?I do not like it at all.

This is exactly as I felt. I’m hoping this isn’t going to be common now that the (book) content is gone. I fear it will. The Unsullied fight made me cringe for everything that I enjoy about GoT, plausibility, even for fantasy fiction. Your summary of the Unsullied fight is precisely what I said to my wife after watching that episode. I’m not buying that fighters trained from birth, who do nothing buy train, would be so inept in a simple fight. Phalanx formation at least man, wth? Lame.

[Walter_Yarbrough]

I am enjoying these episodes - my only real beef was not taking a few minutes for Aemon to explain that Kill the Boy was advice given to Aegon.

I enjoyed the book reader references: “This isn’t the Rhoyne” - Tyrion and “You aren’t supposed to be here.” - Reek to Sansa.

I could have sworn there was another one . . . I’ll have to look for it when I rewatch these episodes :)

As for Dany - bryndenbfish is rapidly becoming my favorite GOT site - and they have an interesting essay on Dany’s future.

In a nutshell, Dany goes back and forth between the caring Mhysa of her freed people and the fire and blood of the Mother of Dragons.

If you subscribe to that theory - this episode is setting Dany up very well to unleash fire and blood on Essos, until the Mountains tremble before her.

[Incendiary_Lemon]

Even though she is not perfectly well mannered. She successfully went from being sold to a horse lord to taking over 2 cities and freeing a bunch of slaves. That is a pretty good track record of getting shit done.

Not to be too pedantic in discussing a work of fiction - but I think the Dragons should get the bulk of the credit there.

Dany isn’t Rob certainly, she’s not conjuring victories out of nothing.

We don’t know the total population of GRRM’s fictional world, but even if still at the 10s of millions I find your statement odd considering the only players backed by Varys and Illyrio have been Targs. They DO seem to care entirely about putting a Targ back on the Iron Throne. . .we just don’t know why yet.

The name offers legitimacy. If Varys wants to end the war, he needs someone who will be tolerated, if not accepted, by the major houses. The Lannisters might suffer a Targaryen, but not a Stark.

[John_Reynolds]

In a nutshell, Dany goes back and forth between the caring Mhysa of her freed people and the fire and blood of the Mother of Dragons.

If you subscribe to that theory - this episode is setting Dany up very well to unleash fire and blood on Essos, until the Mountains tremble before her.

That was Dany’s arc in book 5 and she’s clearly heading toward Fire and Blood. Read her last chapter again, at least its last few pages. GRRM coyly has her say her house words before stumbling and having the tall grass hide her from the dothraki scout. In fact, I think he actually said in an interview that she’s going full fire and blood in book 6.

[Steel_Wind]

Guess it depends on how much you think Varys cares about staying alive and in power. Yes, he wants the Throne in good hands, but Dany is his only real choice if he’s going to be a significant part of it. I have no trouble believing that he’s motivated to put himself in the best position to influence the next ruler. He probably truly believes that with himself (and Tyrion) as advisers, Dany will be the best choice.

Show Varys and Book Varys are two different creatures. I have no problem with show Varys and his motives are not complicated in any way by supporting a Mummer’s Dragon.

Book Varys, otoh, has yet to show his true colors and motives. There is not a chance the Aegon is a real Targ. We know this to be true with reference only to the facts as set out in the book as Illyrio reveals that Viserys was their first choice. That cannot be if Aegon was a real Targ as Aegon’s claim is clearly better than Visery’s claim. Moreover, Aegon was a supposed Targ heir who was wholly within their control and is by all accounts a decent and reasonable young man who is comfortable believing he is a royal Targ. Yet they chose Viserys as their first choice. Nope. Viserys can’t be their FIRST choice if Aegon is real.

The fact that Aegon has been completely omitted from the show further underscores the fact that he must be false, introduced by GRRM principally as a red herring and to muddy the waters of his prophecies, who the false dragon is, who the Prince/Princess who was Promised is as well as who the Three Heads of the Dragon are, in truth. Those motives GRRM has to keep the prophecies cloudy are not concerns that the show has, as the show has completely ignored almost all of the book’s prophecies. Hell, it’s even ignored the ONE prophecy the show actually made (Balon Greyjoy’s fate has not been shown - and that one was explicit on the show, damn it) while leaving the introduction of part of Cersei’s prophecy to the beginning of Season 5.

So no, “Aegon” must be descended from, at best, a Blackfyre bastard who they deceived Connington about as their “iron in the fire” in case something went wrong with Viserys and Dany. Well, Viserys died – and Dany slipped beyond their control. Rather than try to devote all their resources to Dany to bring her back under their wing, the only bone they throw her is Tyrion – mainly as a way to influence her should she somehow emerge from the East. And maybe they will marry her off to Aegon (except Tyrion messes that up by putting ideas in Aegon’s head).

Instead, they throw all their material support behind the pretender, Aegon - a false Targ.

So the idea that Illyrio and Varys are all about a true Targaryen restoration for its own sake is clearly false. Book Varys has other motives, and they go beyond mere temporal power and influence – though that is clearly part of it. Backing Aegon in preference to Dany (or any other claimant) suggests there are other motives behind Varys’ game – and we simply don’t know what they are yet.

My guess is that there is some religious motive, or at least their opposition to magic which has something to do with what they are all about. A motive which is satisfied as long as “Aegon” is a bastard with some of the Dragon blood in him.

Whatever the heart of it is, in the books, we don’t know the whole of it yet.

[Walter_Yarbrough]

That was Dany’s arc in book 5 and she’s clearly heading toward Fire and Blood. Read her last chapter again, at least its last few pages. GRRM coyly has her say her house words before stumbling and having the tall grass hide her from the dothraki scout. In fact, I think he actually said in an interview that she’s going full fire and blood in book 6.

In my last few re-reads, I actually consciously skipped the Dany chapters. I just couldn’t stand the Meereenese knot. After this season, I may be re-reading again, secure in the knowledge that we are watching her go Fire and Blood.

[gameoverman]

She’s also what 16… in the book. I mean she has a lot of growing up to do in a world that’s trying to kill her or use her. Stannis is a full grown man feeding people to the fire at the whim of some woman. I like Stannis, and I think they did a good job on the last episode with his daughter, but he hasn’t earned anything from me. He’s no fool, but he’s also no Ned Stark.

If Ned Stark were alive he’d be backing Stannis for King. Ned would bend the knee for Stannis, that’s how much of a good guy Stannis is. Since he doesn’t have a Ned Stark alive and on his side, Stannis has to burn some kindling once in a while.

[HumanTon]

If Ned Stark were alive he’d be backing Stannis for King. Ned would bend the knee for Stannis, that’s how much of a good guy Stannis is. Since he doesn’t have a Ned Stark alive and on his side, Stannis has to burn some kindling once in a while.

… That’s how honor-bound Ned is. If I recall the first book correctly, Ned thinks Stannis is cold-blooded and a bit of a jerk … but also the rightful king by the law of the land. So he gets Ned’s implicit support, because that’s the kind of guy Ned is.

This discussion reminds of how quick people are to conflate good with true to their word with competent when discussing GOT, presumably because typical fictional heroes are all three at once. But what Martin enjoys more than anything else is pointing out how these three things need not be related. We’ve already seen a couple of cases in the books where characters are good and true to their word, but not competent, and it leads to their undoing. And if I’m not mistaken we’re currently seeing a case where a character values being competent and true to their word, but at the cost of their soul.

Stannis is supremely competent; indeed the only two characters in the entire series who have been presented as competent to rule are Stannis and Tywin. (Tyrion has a knack for it, but is ultimately unreliable.) And Stannis is pedantically true to his word. But I would never describe him as good; if he were a D&D character I’d call him Lawful Neutral. He does what he does because he’s the rightful king and that makes what whatever he does technically correct … which in his eyes is the best kind of correct.

[Pod]

The fact that Aegon has been completely omitted from the show further underscores the fact that he must be false, introduced by GRRM principally as a red herring and to muddy the waters of his prophecies, who the false dragon is, who the Prince/Princess who was Promised is as well as who the Three Heads of the Dragon are, in truth. Those motives GRRM has to keep the prophecies cloudy are not concerns that the show has, as the show has completely ignored almost all of the book’s prophecies. Hell, it’s even ignored the ONE prophecy the show actually made (Balon Greyjoy’s fate has not been shown - and that one was explicit on the show, damn it) while leaving the introduction of part of Cersei’s prophecy to the beginning of Season 5.

“Aegon is omitted from the show, therefore Aegon doesn’t real”
“The prophecies were omitted from the show, but they are completely true”

:)

Bonus points for:

“The prophecies are true and GRRM is trying to cloud them with Aegon”.
but somehow not:
“The prophecies are false and GRRM is trying to cloud the book with them”.

[gameoverman]

… That’s how honor-bound Ned is. If I recall the first book correctly, Ned thinks Stannis is cold-blooded and a bit of a jerk … but also the rightful king by the law of the land. So he gets Ned’s implicit support, because that’s the kind of guy Ned is.

This discussion reminds of how quick people are to conflate good with true to their word with competent when discussing GOT, presumably because typical fictional heroes are all three at once. But what Martin enjoys more than anything else is pointing out how these three things need not be related. We’ve already seen a couple of cases in the books where characters are good and true to their word, but not competent, and it leads to their undoing. And if I’m not mistaken we’re currently seeing a case where a character values being competent and true to their word, but at the cost of their soul.

Stannis is supremely competent; indeed the only two characters in the entire series who have been presented as competent to rule are Stannis and Tywin. (Tyrion has a knack for it, but is ultimately unreliable.) And Stannis is pedantically true to his word. But I would never describe him as good; if he were a D&D character I’d call him Lawful Neutral. He does what he does because he’s the rightful king and that makes what whatever he does technically correct … which in his eyes is the best kind of correct.

Most people would call Ned good, he’s certainly not bad right? So a good guy like Ned is going to support a bad guy(Stannis) just because of some law? No, I don’t think so. Ned would throw in with Stannis because Stannis isn’t a bad guy. Whether Stannis keeps his word or is competent isn’t part of it, since a bad person can keep his word AND be competent. So those things neither prove nor disprove good/bad. I think the reason some people won’t acknowledge Stannis as being good is because they conflate good with likable. Ned can think Stannis is an ass on a personal level but that doesn’t mean he also has to think less of Stannis morally.

[gurugeorge]

… That’s how honor-bound Ned is. If I recall the first book correctly, Ned thinks Stannis is cold-blooded and a bit of a jerk … but also the rightful king by the law of the land. So he gets Ned’s implicit support, because that’s the kind of guy Ned is.

This discussion reminds of how quick people are to conflate good with true to their word with competent when discussing GOT, presumably because typical fictional heroes are all three at once. But what Martin enjoys more than anything else is pointing out how these three things need not be related. We’ve already seen a couple of cases in the books where characters are good and true to their word, but not competent, and it leads to their undoing. And if I’m not mistaken we’re currently seeing a case where a character values being competent and true to their word, but at the cost of their soul.

Stannis is supremely competent; indeed the only two characters in the entire series who have been presented as competent to rule are Stannis and Tywin. (Tyrion has a knack for it, but is ultimately unreliable.) And Stannis is pedantically true to his word. But I would never describe him as good; if he were a D&D character I’d call him Lawful Neutral. He does what he does because he’s the rightful king and that makes what whatever he does technically correct … which in his eyes is the best kind of correct.

Completely agree with this. I’ve never understood why so many nerds are so ready to throw their knickers at Stannis.

He has his plusses and minuses, like every other character, and he’s slightly towards the positive side overall, and would probably make a decent enough king of the realm. The realm would at least be stable and lawful. That’s about it though; it’s hard to see any improvement in the realm if he’s king, it would just be business as usual, but business as usual smartly and honestly run. He’s still in thrall to a crazy witch who burns people alive and that’s a pretty big downside in my book. (But then again, with Melisandre, she may be a crazy witch, but her prompting led to Stannis doing a good thing oop north, and she seems to be against the WW, so she has a positive side as well.)

Etc., etc.

Dany is a far more positive character than Stannis overall, she’s actually trying to do something revolutionary and good like ending slavery in an entire region ferchrissakes; but she has some pretty big downsides to her character too (young, inexperienced, sometimes impetuous). (I often suspect a lot of the anti-Dany sentiment is just being contrarian vs. the early swooning over Dany when the books first came out. “You’re just a sucker for a pretty face”, type thing.)

By far the vast majority of the characters in GoT have some cost/benefit thing going for them, few are unambiguous white hats or black hats (Ned is probably about as white as you can get in that world, Ramsey about as black as you can get in any world).

[Tin_Wisdom]

Ramsey about as black as you can get in any world).

How cool would it be if - in three or four seasons or two books - Ramsey ends up sitting on the Iron Throne and all of us fans were nodding and going, “yeah, after everything, he’s the right choice.”

[gameoverman]

He has his plusses and minuses, like every other character, and he’s slightly towards the positive side overall, and would probably make a decent enough king of the realm. The realm would at least be stable and lawful. That’s about it though; it’s hard to see any improvement in the realm if he’s king, it would just be business as usual, but business as usual smartly and honestly run.

Haha, okay. Positive side/decent enough/stable and lawful/smartly and honestly run but he’s not a good guy. Meanwhile Dany is far more positive, yet her rule is unstable and so far lawless, what with her right hand man being killed in the street and her feeding a random person to her dragons.

[Teiman]

Stannis is not a natural leader, he is not likeable. People don’t want and don’t like to have a leader that is so boring and lame. They would immediately follow any other person with these traits instead of him. In that, is similar to Tyrion, he can govern by force, but how long you can govern by force alone?

Or maybe I am selling him short, and he do have some leader skills and some weird likeability. Just is a niche likeability that only few people see and follow.