I never said he’s not a good guy. He’s obviously not a complete white hat, but he’s certainly somewhat on the positive side - good to a degree, good enough in some respects. He’d be an ok option. But there are surely better, potentially more progressive options (Jon, Tyrion, even Varys, say - and I would say Dany too, provided she learns from her experience and matures, and doesn’t go Targ crazy.)
But wrt Dany, would it have been better ruling/good ruling for her to have not freed all those slaves? Does that have no weight at all on the positive side for her?
Or is it only just a teensy bit of positive, as against her inexperience and occasional impulsiveness (and it is only occasional - after all, she has taken heed of her counsel very often too)?
I don’t dislike Stannis (e.g. it doesn’t bother me that he’s stiff and uncharismatic in that sense), I’m just baffled by the lurrrv.
Stannis is lawful neutral. Case closed. :P
Just realized after the Mormont/Tyrion pair up that this series seems to always have at least one or two “odd couple” on the road pairings going on every season.
If I was sorting them like crayons, Stannis goes in the box with Ned and Jon and Tyrion. Dany goes in the box with Tywin and all of House Tyrell(that I’ve seen). The Boltons are in the box with Cersei and Littlefinger. The Freys are the crayons that are broken and don’t get a box. That’s why I say if Ned’s good then so is Stannis as they are cut from the same cloth. Ned wouldn’t have used a witch as Stannis does? Well, Ned never had to face that choice so it’s hard to prove. He did sacrifice his honor to bring Jon back, so there’s an indication he might have done the witch thing under the right circumstances.
Jason, now I can’t stop thinking about all the odd couple moments in this series, lol. That’s why Brienne couldn’t bond with Sansa, it’s impossible to explain her odd couple adventures with Jamie without sitting down to pitchers of ale and a couple of hours of free time.
Damn grim ending to tonight’s episode.
Overall, I liked it but the Dorne scene was weak – there have been coincidences of timing on the show before, but that felt farcical.
King’s Landing - I really hate the queer shaming angle they’ve chosen as the cause for imprisoning Loras. I also don’t understand why we’re having an “inquest” and that generates enough evidence to move to a trial? What is this, Law and Order: Westeros? Tommen’s ineffectiveness in the book is understood because he is a 10 year old boy – he’s much older in show and his lack of initiative really changes his charracter. Some dirty punks including his cousin (!) lays a hand on the woman that he’s infatuated with and he doesn’t say a word? I’m hoping that Lady Olenna will put this plotline to rest quickly because it’s really a mess.
Dorne - Why would you plot a kidnapping in broad daylight in a completely open public space? Jaime and Bronn can just waltz into the palace grounds as well apparently. It’s a shame that they didn’t spend some money on hiring someone who knew how to film sword fights – this is the second time this season that this has been poorly done. Bronn was made to look as effective as Jaime - which is to say not at all, and that’s completely at odds with how viciously efficient he is supposed to be. Why wouldn’t he have thrown his knife at one of the Sand Snakes as an opener?
I guess we’ll have to see what Prince Doran does to Jaime. This whole thread is so off the charts it’s tough to know what to think. What would Book Prince Doran do in this situation? It’s not difficult to imagine some justifications for executing him on the spot - he’s the son of Tywin Lannister as well as an oathbreaking Kingsguard.
Winterfell - This was the predictable outcome of leaving Sansa with a psychopath. Maybe Baelish really doesn’t care about her. Ramsay’s days are certainly numbered, just a question of who kills him. Theon? Roose? Brienne? Sansa, herself? The last would be a good way to redeem the horrible writing choice of leaving Sansa here and actually letting her play a role in her own fate for once.
Bronn sings!
I see that they have the same security firm for the Water Gardens as for STAR Labs.
Just wrote this on FB and figured I might as well share it here:
One of the most endearing aspects of A Song of Ice and Fire is that GRRM, as a fan of actual history, gave his fictional fantasy world a very realistic feel by letting the bad guys often win. The good guys make mistakes, but in ways that feel natural to the characters themselves, and often pay hefty prices for it.
The TV adaptation, however, just likes to show T&A and rape for titillation purposes. The producers have gone so far off the rails this season that the story isn’t even recognizable at this point. Intelligent, cunning players of the political game are acting like utter buffoons, deadly knights stumble about like thespians with props, story arcs are forcibly merged to allow a silly panoply of odd couples to lurch about the map of Westeros with little to no agency, and characters act entirely out of character from what the show itself has established for them. The show is devolving into a complete mess.
The arrogance of the producers and their writers in believing they could so drastically deviate from the text of a series of books popular enough to green light into a television production costing $100s of millions to make is producing its unavoidable consequences this season. A Song of Ice and Fire is a massive and massively complex story, with a War and Peace-like cast of characters often possessing Shakespearean depths and ranges all set within a storied fantasy world with a rich history the show has barely scratched the surface of.
John Reynolds - completely agree.
Dorne is the pinnacle of the worst – it’s the farthest deviation from the books. If every other plotline was as abysmal as Dorne - would this show be popular? It’s tough to see how.
There is no way that GRRM can be happy with this can he? The amount of time he spends on writing manuscripts inclines me to believe that he cares about the final product as far as his books are concerned. Maybe he feels differently about the show and as long as he is getting paid in cash then it’s all good to him.
olaf
6230
I thought this was the best episode of the season though I hated how it ended. I was hoping Theon would get some balls and kill Ramsey (however unlikely given that he didn’t let Asha rescue him) or that Sansa had lit that candle and some Stark/Winterfell partisans would come to her rescue.
Worst episode of the entire series. False notes throughout, and capped by the repulsive ending.
Sit around with a bunch of gout and watch children play in a fountain.
I thought it was the best episode this season for the simple fact that it actually moved the plot forwards for most of the sub-plots it showcased.
I liked the stuff with Arya. Umm… yeah.
So, I guess um… Littlefinger didn’t have a plan? What?
His plan is to crush whomever wins at Winterfel, become Warden of the North and marry Sansa?
Tim_N
6236
I haven’t seen the latest episode but have been surprised by the reactions to the last scene. How is it worse than what happened to Dany in episode 1 of the show (serious question), beyond the fact that it did not (at least so far) happen in the books?
Tim_N
6237
Also, here is the GRRM blog post about tonight’s episode: http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html
Essentially, “leave me the fuck alone about the show” which is fair enough, I guess.
jg93
6239
The Dorne stuff does feel off, but the rest of it is fantastic. If I hated something as much as many here I certainly wouldn’t waste my precious life watching it, and then even more time crying about it in some forum. To each his own I guess.
OK, after having slept on it a bit:
The Jorah/Tyrion stuff… pretty decent, though getting captured by slavers and talking their way into going the right direction seems very reminiscent of the Bronn/Tyrion stuff from… season one. I can only assume that it will end with Jorah being introduced in the opening night of the fighting pits in front of Dany as everything else goes to Hell and she rides off on Drogan in the last scene of the season. I hope I’m wrong.
The Kings Landing stuff was awesome. Great to see Diana Riggs again.
I thought that the return of Littlefinger should quiet many of the complaints upthread, as he showed once again how easily he can manipulate Cersai: “Hey, here are three reasonable-sounding options to solve the problem I’ve created… oh, none of them are viable? Well, how about I step in and in return you give me control of a THIRD major kingdom in your realm?”
Of course, none of that explains why he tossed poor Sansa into the mix for real rather than just lying about it and keeping her safe in the Vale.
The Dorne scenes… bletch. I don’t have any problem with Bronn and Jamie in their stolen guardsmen uniforms waltzing right into the palace, and I suppose that the off-the-cuff plan is in-character with Jamie, but it didn’t feel like something Bronn would have agreed to. Then the stunningly silly coincidence of them trying to rescue Myrcella at the exact moment that the singularly unimpressive Teen Ninja Force Sand Snake tries to assassinate/abduct her happens, and… yeah. Some of the silliest, worst-choreographed fighting we’ve seen in Thrones, with lots of whips used against men with fucking SWORDS. When Hoata broke up the fight I was simply relieved I didn’t have to keep watching.
I was never particularly fond of the Sand Snake stuff in the books because it seemed like a lot of new characters to keep track of that never actually accomplished anything other than impressing you that Doran Martell is very adept at keeping a light but effective hand on his childish extended family. If we’re lucky, the show has impressed us with that already and Teen Ninja Force Sand Snake can take their carefully-molded boob-armor and go away.
Then of course we have Sansa and her horrific wedding night. She shows that she is stronger and smarter than Ramsey’s jilted lover, but as of now it seems like she’s no match for Ramsey himself. Yuck. Again, this scene is a throwback to Throne’s first season with Dany’s being sold off to Drogo… but of course there probably won’t be any redemption for Ramsey.
