wow… I don’t know who you are, but you were pretty accurate
One thing is pretty clear.
Sam and Gilly. He already knew about Prince Rhaegar’s second marriage, because he had previously copied the book. He needs an apology from many fans who have screamed at him for “not listening”. ;)
Although, the show did a poor job of making that clear, I suppose.
In the original plan those three characters were also totally different people.
Tyrion isn’t in (romantic) love with Daenerys, he is in love with his position/influence over her and what she stands for. So far he was her main advisor and her “go to”-guys (so pretty much the 2nd most powerful person on their side) but Jon obviously threatens that position. She starts to listen to him and values his opinion.
When Tyrion is outside the room he realises that things will change if Dany and Jon get into a relationship and that will have consequences on many levels, including his own position and relationship with Dany.
This seems like the most likely explanation. I also think Dany was right about Tyrion, he still has loyalties to his family. She was also right about Varys. She can’t trust either of them. That’s why the scene of them half-heartedly scheming earlier in the season was important.
I won’t say you are not right, because that was my initial interpretation, too, and I still believe that to be true. But:
that doesn’t mean there are no romantic undertones in his behavior;
GRRM was not ‘above’ the idea of a love triangle between his major characters.
You can say that the show hasn’t earned that moment yet, and you would probably be right, but if you are saying that (love triangle) situation doesn’t make sense, I disagree 100%.
Kudos to him if he actually predicted this, though after season 7 ended, I went back and read through the massive season 7 leak from the end of last year. Nearly all of it is 100% on the money:
Its not about it being actual its about it being earned. The part of why the first four season of GoT being great was that most of the twists and turns were very much earned (due to the actual books being the main influence). Since Tyrion has met Dany in the show, there has been barely any notice of him having a romantic longing for her, yes he admires her and even says so, but except for that long glance at the door last episode, there was never any indication.
I still like the show alot, and I get that they don’t have time and money to stretch the show. But the last season just felt very rushed and the payoff was not as good as the lead up to the Red Wedding and Hardhome episodes. There was also way too many deus ex moments this season that it almost became funny… how many times can we expect the good guys get saved at the last moment! I get it, the shows almost over, no time to waste!
I remember thinking when season 6 ended with that massive armada sailing to Westeros – 100k Dothraki, 10k unsullied, 3 dragons, and an alliance with the entire South – there’s no way Cersei is going to survive the season. Season 6 ended with her killing a lot of people, and s7 will end with her on the receiving end of well-deserved justice. Plus it will clear the plate of all the Iron Throne politicking and let the show focus the last season on the Others and how that plays out.
I’m fairly certain she had arranged with commands to the Mountain before the meeting to not do it if she said to. Likewise she probably had told him before meeting Tyrion ‘I may yell angrily at him, but don’t kill him’. She’s using him as leverage but doesn’t actually want to strike them down, just make them think/know she could. It did seem odd with the Jaime bit, but that’s the only explanation I can think of.
Regarding the incest, incest is greatly frowned upon in Westeros. The Mad King was mad and it was blamed on the inbreeding so with his ousting it became a huge taboo. I do get a chuckle out of the fact that they are both Targs though.
The wall had magical spells and runes on/in it. The undead couldn’t go over/under/through it without destroying it first and until the dragon they didn’t fully have the ability to do this. they tried with the giants and mammoths. There is probably a reason the previous dragon owners didn’t take their dragons up there to ever deal with the undead. One in their hands was enough.
I’ve read a previous version of the script (after I watched the actual episodes) and there was a much more prominent role for Melisandre in plan for this season. For example, she was the one to meet Arya (on her way to King’s Landing) and tell her that Jon is alive and in Winterfell. But, Carice van Houten got a baby last year and the scenario needed to be changed. At least, that’s my interpretation.
I didn’t want to imply that love triangles weren’t a thing for GRRM, I just don’t think that this particular one will happen or even fits the characters. Jorah would have been the more reasonable option IF you wanted to introduce one but Tyrion?
I mean even if he has feelings for Dany (and that’s certainly possible though I feel like it’s not coming from a romantic angle) he is smart enough to know that there is just no chance in hell of this happening.
It might still hurt him to have real confirmation of this fact but I just don’t see any scenario where a real love triangle would make any sense (there was also not a single romantic hint in any of the conversations between Dany and Tyrion). Imo it’s just too late to introduce such a story element and it would muddy the effect of the whole “tragic incest-love” angle between Jon and Dany.
Yep, the director of the episode recently came out saying the ‘Tyrion traitor’ or ‘romance/jealousy’ theories surrounding this scene are nonsense.
“Is she now going to make choices based on the fact that she has an intimate relationship with him, or is she still going to be as pragmatic and strong as she would otherwise be? All that is a question now, and as her chief strategist — as her Hand — not being able to see what the future holds is a worry.”
I like both of these theories better than “Tryion is dumb”. Earlier it clearly bothered him seeing the dragons used against his kinsman. In his scene with Cersie he admits to his extreme pain over the death of the kids. He finds out she is pregnant. He asks her “What do you want”. We don’t hear the answer. They drink wine together. Fade to black. He must KNOW that she would never just drop all her enmity and play nice. That is so far away from her character, and his thinking that is so far away from his character. I HOPE that it is a betrayal or an extra clever double cross against Cersie. That last scene outside the bedroom was there for a reason, or it had better have been. So bummed that the season is over. By far my favorite thread on Q23.
Edit: Tryion seeks redemption. He has done everything in his power to stop Dany from destroying Kings Landing. The whole “break the wheel” schtick rings kindly lamely. Cercie asks him if his plan was to get Jon to bend the knee to Dany and his reply is “Not like this.” What does that mean?
I think it just bothered him to see all those guys just getting butchered while he sat back and watched. I don’t know if he felt particular kinship with them.
He was pretty clearly worried about Jaime. I think also just the scope of the destruction bothered him. Also add in the Tarley massacre, and he has to be thinking this is what the Mad King was like.
Yes, Tyrion is clearly worried that he is going to lose influence over Danerys. That hallway scene simply cements it. It has nothing to do with being in love with her, or with playing everyone in some sort of double cross, that would be stupid. For this entire season Tyrion, as Dany’s chief advisor, has had the dual effect of curtailing her more destructive instincts (not attacking King’s Landing directly, taking a more patient tack with Jon and the North, etc.) while also presiding over her worst setbacks. His entire storyline this season has been about this struggle, and the conversation he had with Danerys a couple of episodes ago illustrated that. He’s very worried that his recent setbacks combined with Jon’s rising stock could combine to cost him the influence over Dany that he sees as the only thing holding her back sometimes from self-destructive behavior. Tyrion believes in Dany, believes she is the best option for the people of Westeros, and is trying to do things the right way with her. As someone else mentioned, this is his redemption, through her he can save Westeros. He’s worried that’s going to fall apart. What he should be doing is talking directly to Jon, as then he’d find Jon feels much the same way, and together they could cement Danerys as a Queen of Westeros the people would not just accept, but welcome.
Tyrion hasn’t lost any of his wits, he knows damn well Cersei is not going to do what she says, and he will advise his allies accordingly. When/If Jaime shows up confirming this, it will help heal the rift between the brothers, and in the end I highly suspect one of the two of them will be the one to kill Cersei, most likely as a desperate act to save someone else important, and/or the lives of thousands of people.
A lot of the writing since we left book territory has been mediocre at best, but whomever is penning the Tyrion/Cersei/Jaime stuff is doing a very good job of keeping those characters interesting and on track. Their storyline is one of the more complicated plot threads in the entire series, and so far it’s paying off very well.
The double-cross theory for Tyrion was mega-dumb. There was no way Tyrion would’ve made some secret pact with Cersei to betray Dany because he damn well knows Cersei will have him killed when the scheme is completed, plus she’s crazy and will get everyone else killed to boot when the White Walkers attack. Tyrion is absolutely sincere when he says he believes Dany is the best hope for the future.
Is he worried she’ll fall too much under Jon’s penile influence? What would the practical likely results of that be? Bad tactical strategy on the battlefield? Stupid f’n ideas like marching north to hand-pick a lone zombie out of an army of zombies and get away with it? Bad sex with someone who expects Dany to grind like a wildling girl?
Dany has a thing for bad boys after Drogo and Daario, so even in teh series the expected hook-up with Jon is a bit of a stretch for me.
No less dumb than him thinking that Cercie would have a truce to fight the White Walkers without betraying them all. Pick your poison. Why was he there, talking to her?