1721

Why would you continue to hold out hope for Octonoo?

1722

I suspect we could boil it down to a single statement: “We are not on your side”.

(Sterling’s “No-one reads long interviews” position is cute, but says more about Destructoid than anything else. RPS does fine when we do it. However, we’re also front loading the major topics of the interview in our introduction above the cut. Fundamentally, we’re just a bit more subtle with our MR CODER SAYS PC IS D0MEDDD!ness.)

I’ve got a lot of sympathy for Chris’ history, especially with the original Wii comment. There’s a column in PC Gamer called Devil’s advocate. I’ve said all manner of gleefully offensive things in there over the years… but the context is clearly of paramount importance. Quoting it as a “Serious Opinion” rather than “Entertainment/Comedy/provocation” is sneaky at best, and that’s what happened to Chris.

I’m a less sympathetic with Jon’s current Edge/C&VG situation.

“PSN is more creatively open” is simply the most interesting thing he said on that topic. The rest is stuff which most of us will already know. The actual C&VG news story includes the majority of what was said on the topic from the full interview*. It’s not a stitch up. It’s simply not as complicated as you’d like.

This boils down to: “Oh noes! He quoted something I said!”

And you have to learn to roll with that, or it’s going to drive you fucking mad.

KG

*Which is a damn sight better than some previous Edge --> Edge Online/C&VG situations. If it upsets you that much, you’d be better off avoiding working with Future due to its shared internal editorial systems.

1723

I thought that this was really the heart of the problem. I’d agree with the “deal with it, we’re not on your side” criticisms here were it not for the fact that CVG’s item seems to have gone up before Edge’s.

The circumstances of the interview – talk to a prestigious market, but with a tabloid sister publication listening in – baits the subject into a relatively unguarded discussion that ends up publicly sensationalized before it’s even been published in its original form.

No-one would give a toss if the Edge interview was published first, because then the context (and the sourced conversation) is readily available to anyone who cares.

This ‘shared editorial system’ thing sounds quite the shit sandwich! So Edge has to share its work with $12-a-post RSI blog fodder at other sites all the time? How many third parties get access to stuff before publication? Do Edge’s writers warn their subjects about this sharing? Does it like getting scooped? Do ad sales people have access to the system?

1724

Having been on both sides–press first, now production–I’m amazed at how little anyone cares about anything the press says outside of Metacritic scores, and how little influence it has on any day-to-day decisions. People will listen to forum posters before a critic. The form will evolve despite the press, not because of anything it does or doesn’t do.

As for the public, they’re plenty capable of making good and bad decisions with good or bad information. But really, they’re not the victims here. They rarely read articles, they regularly misrepresent the press when it is presenting fair and accurate info, they take things out of context and trash people and publications all over blogs and forums… basically, they are a bigger problem than the press. They’re like rabid dogs, ready to pounce on anything and everything. Some people throw them red meat to stir them up, others try to remain above the fray and keep them in their cages as much as they can. They’re the ones retarding the evolution of the industry, not the press. Or maybe more accurately, they’re doing their best to keep the industry retarded.

1725

The future of any group of people is based on how newbies are welcomed and what are teached.There can be influential groups that may change things later one, but this is harder. The gaming and non gaming press as a serious effect on that, since can deliver the wellcome salute before any online community can put his hands on the newb.
Don’t put the blame on how the people is, put the blame of who educated then.

1726

If you mean the “full quotes” thing (?), that is a revision they posted after I ranted about them…

1727

No, no, and no.

Future doesn’t have a shared editorial system. The story came from an interview that was already available in print. I imagine (I work at future alongside edge and cvg) that the cvg writer simply pulled it from a print copy that was distributed around the office.

1728

Cool story bro, did you try emailing them first?

It just seemed like a really big overreaction to the situation - dear god, if i am saying that…

(I agree with the early point - retractions are useless, but clarifications normally aren’t.)

I wonder if this is part of the disconnect. When you or Jon are talking about games, you use words like art. You have a history of being involved with indies, with art, talking about games as much as making them. You are going to have a different conversation in that world. I know you go in and out of that world but still…

With the comments in the interview, you touch a mainstream nerve with comments about which console you prefer - you are reading comments from people who look at games as entertainment, they play them for fun. That’s cool, they are allowed to be loud and obnoxious about their feelings, after all if they ignore the subtleties, the design aesthetics, integrated story and gameplay - but still have fun - isn’t that cool? Or do you post a rant saying they are playing the game wrong?

I guess the only reason I spoke up here was, I like all the parties involved and the rant just seemed really misplaced.

1729

“PSN is more creatively open” is not a interesting line. Is only interesting as ammo in the consoles civil war (PS3 vs XBox vs WII).

Seeing a demo in a console is interesting. Could you download the SDK for free, make intros/demos for your console, and upload then? intros are very hardware sensitive, woud not want to run on a emulator.

1730

Cool story bro, did you try emailing them first?

Did they try emailing me before they ran a story they knew would be echo-chambered all to hell? No, of course they didn’t. Given that they have a zillion times the circulation of my little blog, I don’t see how my posting could be disproportionate.

But if this seems like an overreaction, then I think what I was reacting to is not just this particular instance, but that this is like the 12th time journalists have done this to me, and I have recently seen other indie friends get serious amounts of hell that they didn’t need, in one case possibly jeopardizing their livelihood (though fortunately it didn’t turn out that way), due to similar distortions.

Anyway, I understand what you are saying and I appreciate the perspective. But I am going to bow out of the thread for a while so I can do things like work on my games and learn more math (I am working my way through ‘Gravitation’, for real this time …) Also because I have no idea what the hell it is Teiman is talking about in his last line there…

1731

I think I’d worry about anyone who understood what Teiman is on about, really.

1732

This just isn’t effective, whether clarification or retraction, and I have a lot of empirical data to back up this comment, sadly. Once something is out, it’s out, only a small fraction of the people see the correction. It’d be interesting to see a study of how many people see a retraction or clarification, or how a correction diffuses through the community compared to the original story.

I think talking about playing games complicates the discussion without adding anything, so I’m going to ignore that part specifically, but to get to the jist of the question, I do think there is a higher bar for journalists with a popular platform for their posts than there is for random fans posting in a forum[li] or on youtube. [/li]
Isn’t that what this thread is about?

Anybody can post whatever they want to their personal blog, or NeoGaf, or whatever, but somebody who gets paid to write about games and their development for a popular site needs to hit a higher bar, if only because the echo chamber amplifies the extreme parts when it goes to the personal blogs and forums and sadly even other news re-posts.

So, yes, the fans are allowed to be loud and obnoxious, and the journalists aren’t.

Sadly, I don’t rule the world, so this isn’t how it works!

Chris

  • Although my experience with the “I ruined Spore” thing shows that due to the crap state of journalism, things can actually metastasize out of forums and onto news sites, which is really terrifying.
1733

I’m going to have to agree with chet (and KG) that not only is it not as bad as you think it is, it doesn’t matter. If you’re involved in any sort of press, you’re going to get misquoted, your name spelled wrong, the whole context will be about whatever the journalist feels like making it about and basically, it won’t be what you thought it might be most of the time.

Accept that as part of the game and take chet’s advice, don’t talk to the press unless you need to. Remember it’s a two way street. You’re using the press to create buzz, excitement, whatever about your game or game studio. Which will make money with any luck. They are trying to use you and your interview for the same process. To make money.

steve brings up a great point too. The public is going to make bad/good decisions, based on faulty/good information. No matter how good of an interview you give, no matter how awesome the dude writing down your amazing interview is, people are still going to read what they want out of it, often skimming it, if reading it all, and make silly decisions based on what the game at Gamestop tells them when they walk in…

Oh, and, and I echo chet again, game news isn’t journalism, it’s entertainment. Big difference. We get very little actual game journalism.

1734

don’t talk to the press unless you need to

People keep saying this but it doesn’t even fix the problem, as Chris’s Wii episode illustrates (it was something said to an audience of developers at a developer conference). The only way to be “safe” is to never say anything interesting to anyone ever – which has a huge chilling effect on the ability of game developers to have a useful dialog with each other and thus push the industry forward.

This latter part is what offends me the most about the situation, really.

Okay, I am really shutting up now and going to work.

1735

You could suggest that GDC disallow the press from attending for free, though nothing would stop developers from blogging their own analysis/response to presentations and the press will cover the blogs.

In the case of the Wii episode, you don’t get to play the “it was for developers only!” card for what is essentially a public speech.

The only way to be “safe” is to never say anything interesting to anyone ever – which has a huge chilling effect on the ability of game developers to have a useful dialog with each other and thus push the industry forward.

You’re being overly dramatic. If you have such lofty goals, you have to learn to accept that you have very little control of how anything you say in public is interpreted, twisted, or quoted/misquoted.

It’s also hopelessly naive to believe that the mere mention of any of the major console makers, and more importantly the merest hint of criticism of one versus the other, won’t piss someone off. Gamers are whiny little children when their buying decisions aren’t properly validated—witness any criticism of PS3 exclusive games; god help you if you’ve criticized more than one of them, ever—and the manufacturers aren’t much better.

Also, keep in mind that the press gets more grief than you ever will from both groups. They equally fear the wrath of the angry fanboy and the ad-canceling publisher.

1736

I don’t want to spend too many bytes on this, since it’s old and it’s been hashed out, but actually there wasn’t much of a press presence at previous GDCs, like for the rant the year before where I gave a speech entitled “How Sony and Microsoft are about to ruin your game design!” which was about the in-order processors in the PS3 and 360 and how multi-core in-order processors are good at graphics and physics and other stuff like that and shitty at gameplay code. Nobody but a few developer blogs covered that, as expected, and they did it by talking about my actual point. The problem for the “Wii year” was E3 cratered and all the consumer press came sniffing around GDC for stories. Nobody realized that was happening until after it was too late (for me). So, anyway, you’re de jurie correct but de facto wrong on that point, there was the expectation and personal experience that the rant session was “by developers, for developers”. No, I won’t make that mistake again, but it was an honest mistake. Jonthan’s point is developers having to adjust their rants with the expectation they’ll be quoted (potentially out of context) harms the free flow of information in the industry, and I think that’s a fair point.

You’re being overly dramatic. If you have such lofty goals, you have to learn to accept that you have very little control of how anything you say in public is interpreted, twisted, or quoted/misquoted.

We’re kind of going around in circles at this point, and I didn’t mean to make this in to the Chris & Jonathan Thread, but I guess we just have very different, uh, hopes and dreams for what game journalism could be, as well as what the game industry and art form could be. You seem to be saying, “that’s how it is, just deal with it”, and we’re saying, “how it is sucks, let’s push back and try to change it”. I guess that’s the long and the short of it. I’m almost certain your attitude is the less stressful path to take, but I find it kind of sad and cynical, so I’ll probably keep complaining when I see something I feel is wrong, or even suboptimal.

Chris

PS. 4 more days until somebody needs to make a new thread with a new snarky title!

1737

Julian Assange does this better than you.

1738

I would hope so, since the stakes are just a wee bit higher!

Chris

1739

Really? Did you live that sheltered of a life? You would have never made it out of my third grade class.

The only way to be safe in your message is to keep talking. Keep talking and get thicker skin. Quit throwing a hissy fit anytime someone disagrees with you or says something you don’t like - you are bigger than that now. Keep talking, you own your message not by taking your ball and going home but by continuing to talk. And dear god man, just ignore the stupid shit if it gets you that mad. Ignore it, or learn to love it.

A little tip: learning to love it is a lot more fun.

1740

As someone who was high as hell playing through most of Braid, I can say with certainty that Soulja Boy is not playing the game wrong.